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1960's Combined Arms Tactics


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#61 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 07 October 2019 - 0306 AM

IIRC, and I almost certainly dont, light role was 6, mech infantry was 12. I guess most of the reason was the physical difficulty at fitting a Wombat on the outside of an FV432. I would imagine a milan would be 2 FP per vehicle.


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#62 bojan

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Posted 07 October 2019 - 0341 AM

It is a later peruod, but Yugoslav 1984. M-60P APC Mechanized company from a Mechanized bn had 12 x AT-3. Whole Mech bn had 36 or 48 (3 or 4 x Mech Co)
1984. M-60P APC Mech co from the Armored bn had 7 - total for a bn - 7 or 14 (1 or 2 x Mech co).

Edited by bojan, 07 October 2019 - 0341 AM.

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#63 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 07 October 2019 - 0400 AM

7 firing posts to a company was about average for a WP Company IIRC?


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#64 bojan

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Posted 07 October 2019 - 0457 AM

No idea. BMP-1/2 had a launcher each, so number of launchers per co was equal to the number of vehicles in co.
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#65 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 07 October 2019 - 0503 AM

I seem to recall the Soviets beefed up the AT4's (9K111) in BTR motor rifle companies, but I cant remember off the top of my head whether it was 7 or 9 AT4's per company. I guess it was to compensate for the relative lack of firepower compared to BMP's. They seemed to parcel those out, unlike NATO, to the individual Platoon's. They would have had about 27 AT4's per battalion, but they also IIRC had an AT5 launcher, though I cant remember how many of those they had per battalion.


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#66 Interlinked

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Posted 07 October 2019 - 0529 AM

@bojan The BMP-2 carried one extra 9P135 launcher inside the turret for the dismounts.
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#67 FLOZi

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Posted 07 October 2019 - 1307 PM

Frankly I didn't think Vigilant was so widely adopted to make it reasonable. Poster is tagged as "60's" but perhaps could be later (not by much, mind as Vigilant can't have lasted much longer?). Smacked of "Hey boys, come play with cool toys" and "btw Ivan, we have alllll these missiles, don't try it!" to me. That and it was completely incongruous with the Orbat, though I suppose I shouldn't put too much weight in official 'ideal' organisations?


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#68 Chris Werb

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Posted 07 October 2019 - 1643 PM

I confess I'm intrigued. I thought Vigilant was never universally issued and was gone quite a few years before MILAN entered service. I remember a 1976 Jane's giving Mark numbers for formerly Vigilant equipped Ferrets that had had them removed.
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#69 GJK

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Posted 07 October 2019 - 1742 PM

IIRC, and I almost certainly dont, light role was 6, mech infantry was 12. I guess most of the reason was the physical difficulty at fitting a Wombat on the outside of an FV432. I would imagine a milan would be 2 FP per vehicle.


Thanks Stuart.

For MILAN, there were 5 x posts in each section, (1 x FV 432 with one post in sect HQ, two dets of 1 x FV432 with two posts), and four sections in the anti-tank platoon. There was also a mobile section in the platoon, with four Spartan MCT (an anti-tank version of the Spartan APC with a twin MILAN launcher turret).

Best,

Greg.
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#70 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 08 October 2019 - 0207 AM

I confess I'm intrigued. I thought Vigilant was never universally issued and was gone quite a few years before MILAN entered service. I remember a 1976 Jane's giving Mark numbers for formerly Vigilant equipped Ferrets that had had them removed.

 

Yeah, there was almost certainly a gap between vigilant being withdrawn, and our getting Milan. I THINK we got Milan in about 1982, but we obviously got rid of Vigilant by the late 70's. Obviously Wombat was never fully displaced. I think we were still using it in some formations in the late 1980's

 

I dont know what the scale of Vigilant issue was. It may have been a case where they trained up a nucleus of operators, and expected to issue them in wartime. Thats pure speculation on my part.

 

 

 

IIRC, and I almost certainly dont, light role was 6, mech infantry was 12. I guess most of the reason was the physical difficulty at fitting a Wombat on the outside of an FV432. I would imagine a milan would be 2 FP per vehicle.


Thanks Stuart.

For MILAN, there were 5 x posts in each section, (1 x FV 432 with one post in sect HQ, two dets of 1 x FV432 with two posts), and four sections in the anti-tank platoon. There was also a mobile section in the platoon, with four Spartan MCT (an anti-tank version of the Spartan APC with a twin MILAN launcher turret).

Best,

Greg.

 

 

Yeah, thats right for a mechanised or Armoured Infantry battalion. They have 24 IIRC. The battalions attached to 24 Airmobile were a lot more of course, 48 IIRC.


Edited by Stuart Galbraith, 08 October 2019 - 0209 AM.

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#71 jakec

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Posted 08 October 2019 - 0333 AM

I seem to recall the Soviets beefed up the AT4's (9K111) in BTR motor rifle companies, but I cant remember off the top of my head whether it was 7 or 9 AT4's per company. I guess it was to compensate for the relative lack of firepower compared to BMP's. They seemed to parcel those out, unlike NATO, to the individual Platoon's. They would have had about 27 AT4's per battalion, but they also IIRC had an AT5 launcher, though I cant remember how many of those they had per battalion.

I think you'll find it was 4 AT4 firing posts per BTR battalion (6 in some battalions in the 1980s).  At company level they used the AT-7 Metis (3 firing posts per company).


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#72 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 08 October 2019 - 0344 AM

That was it! I knew there was 9 fp per something. My apologies, I should never operate on memory alone. :) The 27 I was thinking of is probably RPG's per Battalion.


Edited by Stuart Galbraith, 08 October 2019 - 0344 AM.

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#73 GJK

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Posted 08 October 2019 - 1556 PM


I confess I'm intrigued. I thought Vigilant was never universally issued and was gone quite a few years before MILAN entered service. I remember a 1976 Jane's giving Mark numbers for formerly Vigilant equipped Ferrets that had had them removed.

 
Yeah, there was almost certainly a gap between vigilant being withdrawn, and our getting Milan. I THINK we got Milan in about 1982, but we obviously got rid of Vigilant by the late 70's. Obviously Wombat was never fully displaced. I think we were still using it in some formations in the late 1980's
 
I dont know what the scale of Vigilant issue was. It may have been a case where they trained up a nucleus of operators, and expected to issue them in wartime. Thats pure speculation on my part.
 
 

 

IIRC, and I almost certainly dont, light role was 6, mech infantry was 12. I guess most of the reason was the physical difficulty at fitting a Wombat on the outside of an FV432. I would imagine a milan would be 2 FP per vehicle.

Thanks Stuart.

For MILAN, there were 5 x posts in each section, (1 x FV 432 with one post in sect HQ, two dets of 1 x FV432 with two posts), and four sections in the anti-tank platoon. There was also a mobile section in the platoon, with four Spartan MCT (an anti-tank version of the Spartan APC with a twin MILAN launcher turret).

Best,

Greg.
 
 
Yeah, thats right for a mechanised or Armoured Infantry battalion. They have 24 IIRC. The battalions attached to 24 Airmobile were a lot more of course, 48 IIRC.

Type A (mechanized (wheeled)) battalions had 24 as well, organised as per armoured/mechanized (tracked) battalions, but mounted on Land Rovers. Type B (light role) and para bns had 6, also carried in Land Rovers.

Airmobile inf bns had 42 firing posts. 10 in the anti-tank platoon of each rifle company and 12 in the anti-tank mobile platoon in support company. All were mounted on Land Rovers.
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#74 Chris Werb

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Posted 08 October 2019 - 1732 PM

Carried by, not mounted on AFAIK.
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#75 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 09 October 2019 - 0136 AM

There was a scout section mounted in landrovers, not unlike the SAS pinkies. I cant remember whether they mounted an automatic grenade launcher or had a Milan mount though.


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#76 GJK

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Posted 09 October 2019 - 0205 AM

Carried by, not mounted on AFAIK.

Correct, I was using the term 'mounted on' to refer to the anti-tank platoon in general, not the firing posts in particular. British convention!

However, I think that the mobile anti-tank platoon in an airmobile bn did have the launchers physically mounted on their Land Rovers. Wouldn't have been different from the rifle company anti-tank platoons otherwise.

Edited by GJK, 09 October 2019 - 0212 AM.

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#77 Chris Werb

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Posted 12 October 2019 - 0558 AM

Yes, from recollection that is correct.
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#78 Chris Werb

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Posted 12 October 2019 - 0600 AM

There was a scout section mounted in landrovers, not unlike the SAS pinkies. I cant remember whether they mounted an automatic grenade launcher or had a Milan mount though.


The ones I saw had a 0.50 M2HB at the back and a GPMG for the co-driver. We hadn't adopted the GMG back then but the SAS had had Mk19s since at least 1991. I lived opposite 24 Air Mobile's base in Colchester until 1997.
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#79 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 12 October 2019 - 0647 AM

Cheers for that Chris.


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#80 FLOZi

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Posted 27 October 2019 - 0532 AM

More orbats from 'Notes on The British Army' (1968) if anyone else is interested; https://www.flickr.c...in/photostream/


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