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9 April 1942 - Bataan Has Fallen


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#41 Richard Lindquist

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Posted 16 May 2017 - 1743 PM

 

 

I'd be mildly surprised if the bulk of the Philippine Army was issued shoes, never mind bolt action rifles.
 
As for Philippine Army casualty totals, if they are incorrect, I am open to more accurate data. It would not shock me if they were wrong, as there is the possibility that those doing the counting (according to Wiki, the American Battlefield Memorials Commission of the U.S. Federal Government) simply didn't give a shit.
 
If they are correct, they certainly paint a picture. One of Fighting Filipino disintegration on first contact with the regulars of the Imperial Japanese Army.

Japanese troops confronting the 11th and 12th PA divisions suffered significant casualties while the 11th and 12th were holding open the line of retreat to Bataan.  It is hard to believe that the two PA divisions did not also suffer similar casualties.  Your list also leaves out the 1st PA Div which was better trained and was their "regular" division and remained effective pretty much to the end.  Nor does your list include the 2nd PA Div which was formed from the Philippine Constabulary Regiments and which also played a large part on Bataan.  There were also about 12,000 "Philippine Scouts" which comprised 80% of the US Philippine Division plus the independent 43rd Inf Regt and 26th Cavalry Regt (Horse) and one-third of the Coastal Artillery units.

His list might be consisting of all the divisions that were under the command of only the Philippine Army. While all the other noteworthy PA divisions and Philippine Scouts seem to the units that were more or less under the command of the US. This separation is made in the wiki on the campaign, down in the section called "USAFFE order of battle, December 3rd; causality report".
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippines_Campaign_(1941–42)

 

Everything was under command of the USAFFE.  There was no separate PA command.



#42 FlyingCanOpener

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Posted 16 May 2017 - 1955 PM

 

Generally native-based units in a colony were light infantry because it met the military needs of the colony in terms of manpower while allowing the colonial power to focus its garrison on heavier weapons to bolster them as needed. It is a deterrence against rebellion--of course--but the upswing is that it's cheaper to maintain a credible force in the colony. In the case of the Philippines, any situation where large numbers of heavy infantry weapons would be needed the garrison units would be called in anyway. Why duplicate capabilities if you're policing a colony on the cheap?


The PI Army was supposed to be the national defence force of a soon to be independent nation. But a poor one, hence the large number of lightly armed infantry. The Commenwealth of the Philippines had to pay for the PI Army prior to 1941 and discount M1917 was the best they could do.

The US Army Historical Center has a paper called "Defence of the Philippines" that goes into detail and there is a book called "Racing the Sunrise" on the last minute efforts of the USA to get more heavy and automatic weapons to the PI.

 

 

That's also a factor in the generally poor nature of the Filipino TOE. I did some work on Colonial armies in Africa as an undergrad and looked a little at the Philippines' own native force and saw the same ideas. It would make sense that they carried over the structure... but couldn't pay for more modern weapons to bolster their strength.



#43 Brian Kennedy

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Posted 16 May 2017 - 2020 PM

Have there been any books released anytime lately about the post-invasion guerrilla movement? I remember reading a Reader's Digest excerpt from American Guerrilla in the Philippines and being blown away...



#44 JasonJ

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 0021 AM

I'd be mildly surprised if the bulk of the Philippine Army was issued shoes, never mind bolt action rifles.
 
As for Philippine Army casualty totals, if they are incorrect, I am open to more accurate data. It would not shock me if they were wrong, as there is the possibility that those doing the counting (according to Wiki, the American Battlefield Memorials Commission of the U.S. Federal Government) simply didn't give a shit.
 
If they are correct, they certainly paint a picture. One of Fighting Filipino disintegration on first contact with the regulars of the Imperial Japanese Army.

Japanese troops confronting the 11th and 12th PA divisions suffered significant casualties while the 11th and 12th were holding open the line of retreat to Bataan.  It is hard to believe that the two PA divisions did not also suffer similar casualties.  Your list also leaves out the 1st PA Div which was better trained and was their "regular" division and remained effective pretty much to the end.  Nor does your list include the 2nd PA Div which was formed from the Philippine Constabulary Regiments and which also played a large part on Bataan.  There were also about 12,000 "Philippine Scouts" which comprised 80% of the US Philippine Division plus the independent 43rd Inf Regt and 26th Cavalry Regt (Horse) and one-third of the Coastal Artillery units.

His list might be consisting of all the divisions that were under the command of only the Philippine Army. While all the other noteworthy PA divisions and Philippine Scouts seem to the units that were more or less under the command of the US. This separation is made in the wiki on the campaign, down in the section called "USAFFE order of battle, December 3rd; causality report".https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippines_Campaign_(1941–42)
Everything was under command of the USAFFE.  There was no separate PA command.

Ok, thank you for all the information.

#45 Richard Lindquist

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 0814 AM

http://www.history.a...-2_Contents.htm

 

Here is the official US Army report though it doesn't mention casualties.  It is hard to believe that the PA divisions fighting from December 1941 to April 1942 suffered as little loss as shown in the Wiki article.  Most of the time, the PA troops were on the line with the US and Philippine Scout units in reserve.  There might have been some desertions during the course of the retreat to Bataan, but the PA units didn't break apart till the Japanese offensive on Bataan in early April.



#46 JasonJ

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 0847 AM

http://www.history.a...-2_Contents.htm

 

Here is the official US Army report though it doesn't mention casualties.  It is hard to believe that the PA divisions fighting from December 1941 to April 1942 suffered as little loss as shown in the Wiki article.  Most of the time, the PA troops were on the line with the US and Philippine Scout units in reserve.  There might have been some desertions during the course of the retreat to Bataan, but the PA units didn't break apart till the Japanese offensive on Bataan in early April.

 

doh

 

nogo.jpg



#47 Richard Lindquist

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 1028 AM

Jason:  Worked fine for me just now using Firefox browser.



#48 JasonJ

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 1037 AM

Jason:  Worked fine for me just now using Firefox browser.

 

I regularly use both Firefox and Google Chrome. Both are not getting through. Even Internet Explorer doesn't get through. Maybe there is a regional limitation.


Edited by JasonJ, 17 May 2017 - 1037 AM.


#49 RETAC21

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 1345 PM

I get the same result, maybe only USians can enter the CMH now.



#50 bojan

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 1400 PM

I can access it normally, try using anonymous proxy.



#51 RETAC21

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 1420 PM

Still got a timeout



#52 Markus Becker

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 1521 PM

Works fine from Germany with the Opera proxy off. That's the paper I was talking about. 

 

 

 

The training program of the division began theoretically on 1 September, when the 31st Infantry was mobilized, but it was not until 24 November that the men first fired their rifles on the target range at the Olongapo Naval Station. One battalion fired fifty rounds per man, and another twenty-five rounds. The third battalion never fired at all, for permission to use the range was withdrawn by the Navy when the 4th Marine Regiment arriving from China, was stationed at Olongapo. No other range was available for the division, and the one under construction was not completed when war came.

The men in the 31st Infantry were more fortunate than those in the other regiments, many of whom never even fired a rifle before entering combat. Nor had their previous five and a half months' training under Philippine Army supervision been of much value, according to Colonel Bluemel. Practically none of the men, he observed, had fired as many as five rounds with the rifle or the .30-caliber machine gun. None had fired the .50-caliber-machine gun or the mortar.

 

 

If only they had been mobilized in the autumn of 1940 when everybody, was.  :(



#53 Nobu

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Posted 18 May 2017 - 0840 AM

...the PA units didn't break apart till the Japanese offensive on Bataan in early April...

 

December 22, 1942:

 

"All the honors in the first day's fight had gone to the Japanese. Only the Scouts of the 26th Cavalry had offered any serious opposition to the successful completion of the Japanese plan. The untrained and poorly equipped Philippine Army troops had broken at the first appearance of the enemy and fled to the rear in a disorganized stream."

 

December 23:

 

"The Filipinos of the 71st Division, like those of the 11th, broke and fled to the rear, leaving the artillery uncovered..."

 

December 24:

 

Within 48 hours of the Fighting Filipinos' first contact with Japanese infantry, MacArthur orders Manila's 1,000,000+ gal USN fuel dump be set on fire to prevent capture and the evacuation of his headquarters from there to Corregidor. Every  officer of the headquarters staff is promoted one grade on the spot--reminiscent of Hitler's promotions en masse transmitted by radio to the Stalingrad pocket to stiffen morale.

 

"...But the chief reason for the withdrawal order was the failure of the troops to hold the enemy. Up to this time General MacArthur seems to have had the greatest confidence in the fighting qualities of the Philippine Army reservists and in the ability of his forces to hold the central Luzon plain. The events of the 22d and 23d forced a revision of this view..."






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