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#1 Brian Kennedy

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Posted 26 June 2017 - 0014 AM

I've always been interested in this guy after reading Defeat Into Victory, because 1) he just seems like the kind of guy you'd like to get a few beers with and 2) his autobiography is such a good read -- self-effacing, chock-full of really good leadership lessons, etc. 

 

Just read his (I think recently updated) Wikipedia entry, and I realized that I had no idea about his Gallipoli service, the novels he wrote mid-war, and the later pedophilia allegations? https://en.wikipedia...t_Viscount_Slim



#2 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 26 June 2017 - 0208 AM

Yeah, dont know what to make of the allegations. Id like to say there is no truth in it, but in truth there was so much of it in establishment figures in the postwar period its difficult to know where truth and fiction begin.

 

Its worth relating oddity in the British Army was seemingly encouraged strange behaviour in the interwar period. I gather Orde Windgate was a keen nudist and Zionist, and JC Fuller was a fully paid up member of Aliester Crowleys Satanist group. So looked at like that.....



#3 Markus Becker

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Posted 26 June 2017 - 0608 AM

I guess a good British general had to be excentric. 



#4 DougRichards

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Posted 26 June 2017 - 0725 AM

Yeah, dont know what to make of the allegations. Id like to say there is no truth in it, but in truth there was so much of it in establishment figures in the postwar period its difficult to know where truth and fiction begin.

 

Its worth relating oddity in the British Army was seemingly encouraged strange behaviour in the interwar period. I gather Orde Windgate was a keen nudist and Zionist, and JC Fuller was a fully paid up member of Aliester Crowleys Satanist group. So looked at like that.....

 

Lets not forget Monty

 

https://www.theguard...books.booksnews

 

But let us also not forget how Monty was able to keep his urges under control.



#5 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 26 June 2017 - 0811 AM

 

Yeah, dont know what to make of the allegations. Id like to say there is no truth in it, but in truth there was so much of it in establishment figures in the postwar period its difficult to know where truth and fiction begin.

 

Its worth relating oddity in the British Army was seemingly encouraged strange behaviour in the interwar period. I gather Orde Windgate was a keen nudist and Zionist, and JC Fuller was a fully paid up member of Aliester Crowleys Satanist group. So looked at like that.....

 

Lets not forget Monty

 

https://www.theguard...books.booksnews

 

But let us also not forget how Monty was able to keep his urges under control.

 

 

You know, Im not sure if I buy it or not. Repressed, yes, but that goes with being English. :D Gay, well possibly that was just the result of a private education rather than any personal sexual proclivity. :)  Anyway, Monty was probably too busy chasing Rommel around the Western Desert  to go potholing.

 

Its an interesting thing, I learned somewhere that the man who crowned Queen Elizabeth was apparently, a repressed homosexual. Though reading the Wiki entry, he was also not against the use of nuclear weapons, so he was clearly a good egg that didnt mind upsetting people.

https://en.wikipedia...Geoffrey_Fisher

 

Ill going to be fair to Slim and say case unproven. They are disturbing allegations and probably it would be well that they properly investigated it, if only for  his reputation, for good or ill. There has been a LOT of investigations of the great and the good in Britain, and its easy to see such things can happen and are and were covered up. Its also easy to see the example of Former Prime Minister Heath whom had similar allegations put against him, which were later proved fairly conclusively to be false.

 

http://www.telegraph...ex-abuse-probe/

The £1  million police investigation into allegations that Sir Edward Heath was a paedophile is being wound up amid claims it has found no evidence to justify tarnishing the former prime minister’s reputation.

Private investigators hired by police to help conduct the inquiry have been told contracts are not being renewed, according to sources.

The inquiry, codenamed Operation Conifer, will be closed in the coming weeks, but the report on its findings will remain confidential.

 

That comes after the police, only the month before, stated they were absolutely certain that he was.

 

http://www.dailymail...lice-chief.html

The police chief investigating claims that Sir Edward Heath was a paedophile is convinced the allegations are ‘120 per cent’ genuine, The Mail on Sunday can reveal.

More than 30 people have come forward with claims of sexual abuse by the former Conservative Prime Minister, according to well-placed sources. 

And they are said to have given ‘strikingly similar’ accounts of incidents to Wiltshire Police – even though the individuals are not known to each other.

The Mail on Sunday has been told that Wiltshire Chief Constable Mike Veale regards the allegations as ‘totally convincing’, and plans to publish a report in June.

Detectives have established that, contrary to claims that Sir Edward could not have committed the crimes as he ‘never drove a car’ and ‘always’ had a police driver with him, he did drive – and did have a car.

They have photographic evidence that shows he is a driver, and have established that he had a driving licence. He also bought a Rover 2000 after being deposed as Tory leader by Margaret Thatcher in 1975, when he was 58.

Friends of Sir Edward insisted that the Wiltshire police inquiry had found no evidence to implicate the Conservative politician.

 

and just when you think it was all starting to sound a bit convincing,

 

'Allegations that Sir Edward was involved in satanic orgies have been dismissed as fantasy by an expert asked to review the case.'

 

At which point you have to wonder how it all got as far as it did. Far too many policemen were trying to make their careers based on evidence that didnt really exist.



#6 Murph

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Posted 26 June 2017 - 1102 AM

I thought Rum, Sodomy and the Lash was restricted to the Royal Navy?



#7 Brian Kennedy

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Posted 26 June 2017 - 1819 PM

Yeah, dont know what to make of the allegations. Id like to say there is no truth in it, but in truth there was so much of it in establishment figures in the postwar period its difficult to know where truth and fiction begin.

 

Its worth relating oddity in the British Army was seemingly encouraged strange behaviour in the interwar period. I gather Orde Windgate was a keen nudist and Zionist, and JC Fuller was a fully paid up member of Aliester Crowleys Satanist group. So looked at like that.....

 

I think I'm like one of five people who have the complete set of JFC Fuller's "Military History of the Western World" (got it on sale at a Barnes and Noble in 1998, in paperback!) It's actually a great read, although his biases (very pro-Islam, very anti-Russia dating back to like the beginning of Russia) are really weird.



#8 Brian Kennedy

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Posted 26 June 2017 - 1824 PM

I guess a good British general had to be excentric. 


I think what you get from reading “Defeat Into Victory” was that Slim was very much an Eisenhower-type general — great at inspiring men, at logistics, etc., but nothing special when it came to strategy. He basically says the same in his book. He was no Napoleon but would have made for a wonderful CEO.



#9 sunday

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Posted 26 June 2017 - 1902 PM

I thought Rum, Sodomy and the Lash was restricted to the Royal Navy?

 

Well, then you have the Paras putting new lyrics to the music of the USMC hymn, with verses such as "We are the perverts of the nation/We are the c*nts your never see"...

There is a complet-ish, quite NSFW version here, proof of the inestimable contributions this Grate Sight has done to the Internets through centuries*.

*Centuries in Internet time, of course.


Edited by sunday, 26 June 2017 - 1902 PM.


#10 Markus Becker

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Posted 27 June 2017 - 1413 PM

I guess a good British general had to be excentric.




I think what you get from reading “Defeat Into Victory” was that Slim was very much an Eisenhower-type general — great at inspiring men, at logistics, etc., but nothing special when it came to strategy. He basically says the same in his book. He was no Napoleon but would have made for a wonderful CEO.

Someone's got to be the exception to the rule. ;)

PS: Got the book, excellent read.

#11 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 28 June 2017 - 0158 AM

 

Yeah, dont know what to make of the allegations. Id like to say there is no truth in it, but in truth there was so much of it in establishment figures in the postwar period its difficult to know where truth and fiction begin.

 

Its worth relating oddity in the British Army was seemingly encouraged strange behaviour in the interwar period. I gather Orde Windgate was a keen nudist and Zionist, and JC Fuller was a fully paid up member of Aliester Crowleys Satanist group. So looked at like that.....

 

I think I'm like one of five people who have the complete set of JFC Fuller's "Military History of the Western World" (got it on sale at a Barnes and Noble in 1998, in paperback!) It's actually a great read, although his biases (very pro-Islam, very anti-Russia dating back to like the beginning of Russia) are really weird.

 

 

I put aside a biography of him about 15 years ago (which I really must pick up again) and he, and his wife, come across as deeply, deeply strange people. OTOH, he was was perhaps one of the most original military thinkers ever. There has been some suggestion his interest in breakthrough theory can be linked to the kind of magical rites Crowley gave, ie, incantation of a strange spell that makes your enemies fall into confusion. Well its as good a theory as any....

 

 

RE CEO, Slim for a while was head of the postwar British Transport Commision, which was most of the goods transport systems in the country collected under one nationalized country. He seems to have been quite good at it, but rather wisely got out of it before it was all ripped to shreds.



#12 Richard Lindquist

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Posted 30 June 2017 - 1026 AM

As governor-general of Oz postwar, he helped heal a lot of the WWII damage done to the UK-Oz relationship during WWII like sending an Oz division returning to defend their own country into Malaya just in time to surrender to the Japanese.



#13 Markus Becker

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Posted 30 June 2017 - 1436 PM

That was a division of British territorials. The 18th if memory serves right. The AIF division destroyed in Malaya had arrived quite some time before the war.

#14 Adam_S

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Posted 01 July 2017 - 1723 PM

Yep. Churchill tried to divert (IIRC) the 6th Australian division to the Far East on its way back from Africa but the PM of Australia told him to get stuffed.

 

The 8th was the division that went into PoW camps. One brigade got strung out in battalion sized groups all over the South Pacific and was little more than a speed bump for the advancing Japanese. The other 2 brigades were sent to Singapore.



#15 Brian Kennedy

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Posted 04 July 2017 - 1818 PM

 

 

Yeah, dont know what to make of the allegations. Id like to say there is no truth in it, but in truth there was so much of it in establishment figures in the postwar period its difficult to know where truth and fiction begin.

 

Its worth relating oddity in the British Army was seemingly encouraged strange behaviour in the interwar period. I gather Orde Windgate was a keen nudist and Zionist, and JC Fuller was a fully paid up member of Aliester Crowleys Satanist group. So looked at like that.....

 

I think I'm like one of five people who have the complete set of JFC Fuller's "Military History of the Western World" (got it on sale at a Barnes and Noble in 1998, in paperback!) It's actually a great read, although his biases (very pro-Islam, very anti-Russia dating back to like the beginning of Russia) are really weird.

 

 

I put aside a biography of him about 15 years ago (which I really must pick up again) and he, and his wife, come across as deeply, deeply strange people. OTOH, he was was perhaps one of the most original military thinkers ever. There has been some suggestion his interest in breakthrough theory can be linked to the kind of magical rites Crowley gave, ie, incantation of a strange spell that makes your enemies fall into confusion. Well its as good a theory as any....

 

 

RE CEO, Slim for a while was head of the postwar British Transport Commision, which was most of the goods transport systems in the country collected under one nationalized country. He seems to have been quite good at it, but rather wisely got out of it before it was all ripped to shreds.

 

 

Do you have the title of the Fuller bio? I just tried to find it myself and failed… all I’ve read from him is the Military History of the Western World books I mentioned — I think those were the least controversial of his works, and all I kept thinking while reading them is “wow, this guy is brilliant and also completely batsh*t”… 



#16 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 05 July 2017 - 0157 AM

 

 

 

Yeah, dont know what to make of the allegations. Id like to say there is no truth in it, but in truth there was so much of it in establishment figures in the postwar period its difficult to know where truth and fiction begin.

 

Its worth relating oddity in the British Army was seemingly encouraged strange behaviour in the interwar period. I gather Orde Windgate was a keen nudist and Zionist, and JC Fuller was a fully paid up member of Aliester Crowleys Satanist group. So looked at like that.....

 

I think I'm like one of five people who have the complete set of JFC Fuller's "Military History of the Western World" (got it on sale at a Barnes and Noble in 1998, in paperback!) It's actually a great read, although his biases (very pro-Islam, very anti-Russia dating back to like the beginning of Russia) are really weird.

 

 

I put aside a biography of him about 15 years ago (which I really must pick up again) and he, and his wife, come across as deeply, deeply strange people. OTOH, he was was perhaps one of the most original military thinkers ever. There has been some suggestion his interest in breakthrough theory can be linked to the kind of magical rites Crowley gave, ie, incantation of a strange spell that makes your enemies fall into confusion. Well its as good a theory as any....

 

 

RE CEO, Slim for a while was head of the postwar British Transport Commision, which was most of the goods transport systems in the country collected under one nationalized country. He seems to have been quite good at it, but rather wisely got out of it before it was all ripped to shreds.

 

 

 

Do you have the title of the Fuller bio? I just tried to find it myself and failed… all I’ve read from him is the Military History of the Western World books I mentioned — I think those were the least controversial of his works, and all I kept thinking while reading them is “wow, this guy is brilliant and also completely batsh*t”… 

 

Yes certainly, its 'Boney Fuller, the intellectual General' by Anthony John Trythall. Its rather old, my copy was purchased as a second hand book show and was printed in 1977. I also cant comment on its veracity, ive read the first half and it was very good indeed, but of course the second half is where the most significant stuff happens.

 

Here you go, see what you make of it.

https://www.amazon.c...l/dp/0304298433

 

Im of the opinion he might well have been the model for Captain Elliot Spencer/Pinhead in the Hellraiser movies. His obsession with Eastern Mysticism and his friendship with Aliester Crowley is enough to make one think of it.



#17 Brian Kennedy

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Posted 07 July 2017 - 1710 PM

Thanks! And yeah, that the Hellraiser reference is kinda accurate... definitely one of the more "interesting" British generals ever. 

 

Fuller's "Military History of the blah blah" kind of sort of reinforces the Fascist-sympathizing accusations -- his takeaway from WWII is that Hitler was bad and stupid, but insisting on unconditional surrender was a mistake instead of us recognizing the greater threat posed by the USSR, etc.



#18 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 08 July 2017 - 0153 AM

In the book I can vividly recall mention in one of his letters at preferring 'A good stinking anglo saxon, to a clean, toenail clipping frenchman' which reinforces the idea he was a very, very strange man indeed. But then that usually goes hand in hand with the truly smart I guess.

 

He certainly had fascist sympathies, and yet, Im not really sure that is why the British Army never made adequate use of him. I think it was probably far more he was a square peg in a round hole. I note that Percy Hobart had exactly the same propensity of rubbing people up the same way, of being a really smart fellow, and preaching a gospel none of his more senior generals remotely understood. It was only the personal intervention of Churchill that saved him from ill deserved obscurity. The difference I suspect is not just the political tendencies, but also Hobart was an effective commander. Fuller reportedly turned down the offer of 1st Experimental Brigade at Tidworth. The suspicion was he knew he would be a fairly ineffective commander and perhaps didnt want to hold it back.


Edited by Stuart Galbraith, 08 July 2017 - 0153 AM.


#19 DougRichards

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Posted 08 July 2017 - 0221 AM

In the book I can vividly recall mention in one of his letters at preferring 'A good stinking anglo saxon, to a clean, toenail clipping frenchman' which reinforces the idea he was a very, very strange man indeed. But then that usually goes hand in hand with the truly smart I guess.

 

He certainly had fascist sympathies, and yet, Im not really sure that is why the British Army never made adequate use of him. I think it was probably far more he was a square peg in a round hole. I note that Percy Hobart had exactly the same propensity of rubbing people up the same way, of being a really smart fellow, and preaching a gospel none of his more senior generals remotely understood. It was only the personal intervention of Churchill that saved him from ill deserved obscurity. The difference I suspect is not just the political tendencies, but also Hobart was an effective commander. Fuller reportedly turned down the offer of 1st Experimental Brigade at Tidworth. The suspicion was he knew he would be a fairly ineffective commander and perhaps didnt want to hold it back.

 

I just googled Percy Hobart and read the wiki" what a character!!  And brother in law of Monty to boot.

 

Imagine what family dinner parties would have been like.



#20 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 08 July 2017 - 0252 AM

They had a recent feature on him in the local paper, apparently early in the war he was living in the Cotswolds (Chipping Camden) and was a Corporal in the Home Guard. Now bear in mind, this is a man with the technical skills and expertise of Heinz Guderian, and in 1940 we have him manning checkpoints with a shotgun searching nuns to make sure they werent paratroopers. Dysfunctional bureaucracy in Britain it would appear, is not an entirely new thing....

 

Ive the official history of 79th Armoured Division on the shelf actually, I keep meaning to make time and go all through it. When the local paper said Hobart's contribution to DD Day and mechanised warfare in general is under appreciated, they are not far wrong.

 

Yeah, its was interesting he was a brother in law of Monty. One suspects that is one of the reasons why there was such a good fusion between his engineering concepts and the British and Commonwealth assault plan in Normandy. I cant help but wonder if the reason why they were not utilised by the American's to the same degree is that that they didnt like him, though there is no evidence of that which ive seen.


Edited by Stuart Galbraith, 08 July 2017 - 0253 AM.





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