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German Anti-Tank Guns In Wwii


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#1 Detonable

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Posted 31 May 2020 - 0008 AM

The standard German anti-tank gun at the start of the Russian Campaign was 50 mm. This was a fairly weak gun to engage T-34s with. What were they building by 1943?
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#2 DougRichards

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Posted 31 May 2020 - 0040 AM

A little research:

 

The Pak 40 (7.5cm) was in service from 1942.

 

The Pak 97/38 reached units in 1942.

 

The 3.7cm Pak 36 stayed in service in one form or another until the end of the war as did the 5.0cm Pak 38.

 

Other guns were also in use, various 7.5cm infantry weapons being used with HEAT rounds, and of course captured Soviet 7.62cm field guns. 

 

The 8.8cm Pak 43 also went into service in 1943.


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#3 Markus Becker

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Posted 31 May 2020 - 0433 AM

If the much knowing internet is right the Pak 38 was introduced in late 1940. I doubt it was more common than the 3.7cm Pak 36 by mid 41 already.
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#4 Nikolas93TS

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Posted 31 May 2020 - 0950 AM

I think first Pak 40 reached front line units in November 1941.
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#5 Detonable

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Posted 31 May 2020 - 1652 PM

Thanks!
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#6 Rich

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Posted 01 June 2020 - 1119 AM

Production of the 3.7cm Pak ended in March 1942 when 15 were completed. Total production was at least 5,628 (production 1 August 1939-end of production).

 

Production of the 5cm Pak 38 began in August 1939 with 8 completed. First issues were at the end of the French Campaign. First use was probably in Africa with Sperrverband Libyen/Rommel.5. le.Div. Production ended in early 1943 with 9,581 built (production 1 August 1939-31 December 1943, note most listing miss the 15 pre-production types built August 39-February 40).

 

Production of the 7.5cm Pak 40 began in February 1942 with manufacture continuing to the end of the war. At least 23,303 were built. First use was probably during Fall BLAU.


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#7 Nobu

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Posted 01 June 2020 - 1432 PM

Interesting production numbers. Also interesting is that Wiki credits the Pak 36 with more T-34 kills than the Pak 38 by September 1942.


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#8 Arminius

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Posted 01 June 2020 - 1503 PM

IIRC the problem with the excellent 5 cm PAK 38 was it´s BIG advantage, it´s light weight: it used LOTS of Aluminium.

 

Did it weigh half of a 7.5 cm PAK 40?

 

OK, against the T 43 with up armoured front and of course the KV´s it was also weak.

 

Hermann

 

 


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#9 Arminius

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Posted 01 June 2020 - 1506 PM

I wonder, why the French 75 mm was heavily modified for AT use ( muzzle brake ): wasn´t the original 75 Mod 97 the basis for the Lee´s, Grant´s and Sherman´s gun??

 

Why not just use a modernized, lower carriage?

 

Hermann


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#10 Rich

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Posted 01 June 2020 - 1528 PM

Interesting production numbers. Also interesting is that Wiki credits the Pak 36 with more T-34 kills than the Pak 38 by September 1942.

 

Why are the production numbers "interesting"? :D

 

What is the "Pak 36"? It was never identified as such. It was originally the 1929 Rheinmettal 3.7cm TAK (Tank-Abwehr-Kanone), which was redesignated the more Germanic 3.7cm PAK (Panzer-Abwehr-Kanone) in 1936. :D No numerical designation other than 3.7cm was ever assigned it.

 

How does Wiki know? :D


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#11 Nobu

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Posted 01 June 2020 - 1545 PM

Because your credentials are, likely as not, hopelessly impeccable, Herr Oberst  :)

 

3.7cm Pak it is.


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#12 Rich

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Posted 01 June 2020 - 1545 PM

I wonder, why the French 75 mm was heavily modified for AT use ( muzzle brake ): wasn´t the original 75 Mod 97 the basis for the Lee´s, Grant´s and Sherman´s gun??

 

Why not just use a modernized, lower carriage?

 

Hermann

It was originally a field gun which did not need a muzzle brake. The U.S. M1897 was not fitted with a muzzle brake because they weren't "'Murican". There was a lot of resistance for some reason in Ordnance to such a device, but then there was a lot of resistance to smokeless and flashless powder as well.

 

In an antitank role, the muzzle brake had the advantage of reducing blast, which made sensing fall of shot easier. The other problem is that the M1897 was a field gun and had separate elevation and traverse, which complicated direct lay.

 

And no, the 75mm M2 and M3 Gun was a completely different gun from the M1897. The only thing they had in common was the dimensions of the complete round fired. Even the round was not really the same after M61 APC and M72 AP were standardized in October 1940 and approved for use in May 1941, although M48 HE was basically an update of the Great War round.


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#13 Rich

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Posted 01 June 2020 - 1548 PM

Because your credentials are, likely as not, hopelessly impeccable, Herr Oberst  :)

 

3.7cm Pak it is.

:D That's Generalfeldmarschal, please. :D


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#14 Markus Becker

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Posted 02 June 2020 - 0027 AM

I wonder, why the French 75 mm was heavily modified for AT use ( muzzle brake ): wasn´t the original 75 Mod 97 the basis for the Lee´s, Grant´s and Sherman´s gun??
 
Why not just use a modernized, lower carriage?
 
Hermann


The original field gun had a very limited traverse. IIRC lesse than 10° to either side. Not what you need when shooting at moving targets.
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#15 R011

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Posted 02 June 2020 - 0039 AM

I wonder, why the French 75 mm was heavily modified for AT use ( muzzle brake ): wasn´t the original 75 Mod 97 the basis for the Lee´s, Grant´s and Sherman´s gun??
 
Why not just use a modernized, lower carriage?
 
Hermann


According to Wikipedia, that is just what they did. The Mle.97 gun was mounted on a PaK 38 carriage and had a muzzle brake added.
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#16 Rick

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Posted 02 June 2020 - 0320 AM

Production of the 3.7cm Pak ended in March 1942 when 15 were completed. Total production was at least 5,628 (production 1 August 1939-end of production).

 

Production of the 5cm Pak 38 began in August 1939 with 8 completed. First issues were at the end of the French Campaign. First use was probably in Africa with Sperrverband Libyen/Rommel.5. le.Div. Production ended in early 1943 with 9,581 built (production 1 August 1939-31 December 1943, note most listing miss the 15 pre-production types built August 39-February 40).

 

Production of the 7.5cm Pak 40 began in February 1942 with manufacture continuing to the end of the war. At least 23,303 were built. First use was probably during Fall BLAU.

If the production of the 37mm did not begin untill August 01, 1939, then what were the anti-tank units armed with before Germany went to war a month later?


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#17 Markus Becker

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Posted 02 June 2020 - 0425 AM

The 5cm Pak 38 went into production at that date, not the 3.7cm Pak 36.
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#18 Rick

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Posted 02 June 2020 - 0535 AM

The 5cm Pak 38 went into production at that date, not the 3.7cm Pak 36.

From Rich's previous post;

 

"Production of the 3.7cm Pak ended in March 1942 when 15 were completed. Total production was at least 5,628 (production 1 August 1939-end of production)."

 

Did I mis-read this? This sentence appears to me to be related to the 37mm gun?


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#19 DougRichards

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Posted 02 June 2020 - 0601 AM

I neglected the 2.8cm schwere Panzerbuche 41 in my initial reply...  But that went out of service fairly quickly as well, as did the 4.2cm Panzerjagerkanone 41.  Neither lasted much after mid 1942.

 

A small number of 7.5cm PaK 41 were issued 'to special units' and, according to Hogg, 'it is believed' that some 7.5cm PaK carriages were used to mount PaK 40 barrels. 

 

Krupp produced around 260 8cm Panzerabehrrwefer 600 (Elfenbein) high-low pressure system guns late war.

 

Of course there was one weapon that was briefly also known as the 7.5cm PaK 37, but was the ordnance of the IG 42 infantry gun mounted on the carriage of the PaK 3.7cm, including on some carriages that had been captured by Germany from the Soviets that had been sold eastward before the war.  Hollow charge penetration was around 45mm.

 

(info sources from Hogg, German Artillery of World War Two).


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#20 Markus Becker

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Posted 02 June 2020 - 0623 AM


The 5cm Pak 38 went into production at that date, not the 3.7cm Pak 36.


From Rich's previous post;

 

"Production of the 3.7cm Pak ended in March 1942 when 15 were completed. Total production was at least 5,628 (production 1 August 1939-end of production)."

 

Did I mis-read this? This sentence appears to me to be related to the 37mm gun?

I does. But it means 5,628 were made after July 39 when the Pak 38 was also made. A quick look at a website that is not Wikipedia says the Pak 36 went into production in 1933 and that 11k of them were in inventory at September 39.
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