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Russian Federation Destroys Last Stockpiles Of Chemical Weapons

OPCW Russia CRBN destruction

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#21 Luckyorwhat

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Posted 03 October 2017 - 1831 PM

Good for Russia, a stabilizing move, an olive branch, hope they keep coming and we send a few back. Who wants conflict with Russia other than weapons dealers? Soldiers? Civilians? Don't think so. Trump's right we should work with Russia (how can that be a bad thing?) and coordinate a movement into the new multipolar world by including them into a new alliance we'll call the 'Global North'. 


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#22 GARGEAN

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Posted 04 October 2017 - 0108 AM

Agree with guy about CW, pretty much disagree about nukes, especially tactical.
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#23 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 04 October 2017 - 0158 AM

Russia will never give up its tactical nuclear weapons. Its the only compensation it has for the amount of territory it has and the amount of armed forces it can afford.


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#24 Chris Werb

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Posted 04 October 2017 - 0352 AM

If you have chemical weapons - or the other side thinks you have them - then you force your potential enemies to invest in chemical protective equipment, whether you intend to use them or not. They are much. much more useable than nukes as we have seen from uses by the (former) Iraqi and Syrian government and IS. When they used them, either nothing or very little was done in retaliation. Tactical nukes, in contrast, offer a fast track to massive retaliation or mutually assured destruction.


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#25 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 04 October 2017 - 0400 AM

Im not so sure. If the Russians actually had that view, I think Trumps TLAM strikes on Syria have disabused them from it.

 

Ive not read of anything about this in Russian doctrine. They seem happy to jump over Chemical weapons and got straight to tactical nuclear weapons, simply because its such an escalation.That and I think their capablity to withstand chemical attack is perhaps not as strong as we historically thought. Zaloga never really rated their chemical defence capablity. They certainly have a lot of chemical weapons defence units, but most of those have a secondary 'flamethrower' capablity. For example, the NBC brigades have TOS-1 as part of their equipment.

 

Im not saying they dont have chemical weapons, I would not be surprised if they retained the ability to make VX. Im just not really buying they would use that as a weapon of first resort. The whole point of de-escalation strike sis to raise the stakes beyond the other sides ability to retaliate, which with the piss poor state of NATO's tactical weapons stocks (I think we have about 200 against their 2000 tactical weapons) quite clearly they have at present. If they used a chemical strike, the US still has its stocks, however vestigial, and they have no very good means of defending against it. Why go there.

 

Just my view FWIW.


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#26 Chris Werb

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Posted 04 October 2017 - 0455 AM

That's the point Stuart - they don't need to use it. The threat is enough. I don't think any Western power has a viable CW capabiity at present (perhaps Israel who are not going to attack Russia anytime soon). i they want to fantasise about winnable nuclear wars, they will need to keep spending on NBC defence. There aren't very many TOS-1s so they can't be a high proportion of the equipment used by Russian CBRN units - presumably they still have the highly impressive TMS-65 or similar. Any stocks the US has are presumably in time expired (and quite possibly dangerous, to the user) munitions or bulk storage. They would not be available for use in the opening stages of an otherwise conventional conflict AFAIK.


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#27 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 04 October 2017 - 0513 AM

That's the point Stuart - they don't need to use it. The threat is enough. I don't think any Western power has a viable CW capabiity at present (perhaps Israel who are not going to attack Russia anytime soon). i they want to fantasise about winnable nuclear wars, they will need to keep spending on NBC defence. There aren't very many TOS-1s so they can't be a high proportion of the equipment used by Russian CBRN units - presumably they still have the highly impressive TMS-65 or similar. Any stocks the US has are presumably in time expired (and quite possibly dangerous, to the user) munitions or bulk storage. They would not be available for use in the opening stages of an otherwise conventional conflict AFAIK.

Its my impression (and maybe the Russian posters can help on this) they are usually at Military District level NBC Brigades. Maybe they will include them in Regiments or battalion level units as they increase procurement.

 

There was a very good orbat of MR Brigade NBC Battalions you can find on Shipbucket, and clearly they DO have decontamination equipment. But equally they seemed to have an equal establishment of those 'flamethrower' units, which actually seem to be thermobaric rocket launchers. Very useful for Urban fights I guess. The rest of the kit seemed to be pretty old, dating from the cold war. Ive also read relatively little on individual Russian NBC equipment, and the for that reason ive a suspicion most of it probably isn tmuch advanced from that they had in 1989. Which for all the plaudits, was not as good as what the British Army had in that period.

 

http://www.shipbucke...t=1941&start=20


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#28 Chris Werb

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Posted 04 October 2017 - 0534 AM

This is on a post Soviet era truck. I have to love this system - NBC decontamination, massively effective smoke generation AND runway deicing in one system :)

 

https://youtu.be/w2J2ndUJo2E


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#29 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 04 October 2017 - 0543 AM

They had a system (think it was based on a Zil 131 truck) that was driving around Beltring 15 years ago keeping the dust down by sprinkling water. That was part of a soviet decontamination system.

 

Hey its all good kit (Id argue they were better at deconamination than actual individual kit) I just question what good shape its in and how seriously they take it anymore. Ive seen nothing that describes decontamination exercise in the recent Zapad for example.

 

If anyone does see anything Id be very interest to read It I might add.


Edited by Stuart Galbraith, 04 October 2017 - 0544 AM.

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#30 Chris Werb

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Posted 04 October 2017 - 0732 AM

In Primorye, at Turgenevsky trange, specialized units in CBRN trained in dealing with chemical warfare. Apparently enemy diversionary groups got this far and had chemical weapons with them. Although part of the exercise seems to be dealing with potential chemical or ammonia leaks from a factory, evacuating civilians, clearing gases and chemicals, so it is perhaps oriented towards consequences of damage to industrial facilities. A host of specialized equipment being used: RHM-6, TMS-65U, ARS-14KM, and smoke machines for cover TDA-3 (the latter part is to cover the movement of ground forces). About one battalion, 500 men and 100 vehicles involved in this exercise.

 

https://russianmilit...up-of-day-five/


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#31 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 04 October 2017 - 0737 AM

Awesome, thank you for that!

 

Annoying I now need to go and redo my TOAW scenario. 423 Motor Rifle Regiment got reformed. :(


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#32 Panzermann

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Posted 04 October 2017 - 0956 AM

This is on a post Soviet era truck. I have to love this system - NBC decontamination, massively effective smoke generation AND runway deicing in one system :)

 

https://youtu.be/w2J2ndUJo2E

 

Looks like the cold war era device on a modern lorry.

 

511aWH2JXNL._SX300_.jpg

 

0_2caf3_c9aede96_L.jpg

soviet TMS-65

 

 

you forgot fire extinguisher. Those are also used to put out big fires like oil wells or crashed aeroplanes etc. etc. The VEB Gaskombinat „Fritz Selbmann“ Schwarze Pumpe near Spremberg in the DDR for example had a Klimov VK-1 jet engine on an IFA lorry in its fire brigade. Or for extinguishing the burning oil wells in Kuwait similar contraptions have been used.


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#33 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 04 October 2017 - 0957 AM

Supposedly they used these for deicing the runway at Kabul airport.


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#34 Chris Werb

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Posted 04 October 2017 - 1002 AM

Panzermann, it's conceptually the same, but there are lots of detail differences in the device itself. I'm guessing they use a more modern jet engine.

 

Here one springs a couple of fuel leaks and explodes - fortunately no one appears to have been harmed.

 

https://youtu.be/o8uu4YQjBwQ?t=53


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#35 bd1

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Posted 04 October 2017 - 1411 PM

i think in every large-scale urban fight in a city that has any chemical industry or something like that, has much larger need for NBC recon /defence units than usually imagined. as in the training exercise scenario chris posted above - . fires, poisonous gases (even by accident, not as part of military action), cleaning, delousing etc. etc. and lets not forget saunas. if engineers dig latrines, then NBC gives you saunas.  :excl:


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#36 Panzermann

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Posted 04 October 2017 - 1516 PM

i think in every large-scale urban fight in a city that has any chemical industry or something like that, has much larger need for NBC recon /defence units than usually imagined. as in the training exercise scenario chris posted above - . fires, poisonous gases (even by accident, not as part of military action), cleaning, delousing etc. etc. and lets not forget saunas. if engineers dig latrines, then NBC gives you saunas.  :excl:

 

Showers! Hot comfortabe showers! I always loved it when the ABC-Abwehrtruppe was in the same training area. :)

 

And they even wash your clothes and clean all your kit! For that I take the inconvenience of having to have to wear the fetish pro-mask and rubber poncho before for a short time. freshly showered and freshly washed uniforms in the second week in the mud zone. :)

 

 

And agree on the underestimated risk of chemical industry plants that get hit in war and spill their contents. Also for civil defence when chemical accidents happen, military CRBN units can help. And get a training exercise for free.


Edited by Panzermann, 04 October 2017 - 1522 PM.

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