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alt-hist c&rsenal pre-WW1

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#61 TonyE

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Posted 06 June 2018 - 0835 AM

Go Krag and top it off whenever you need. :ninja:


Edited by TonyE, 06 June 2018 - 0835 AM.

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#62 bojan

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Posted 06 June 2018 - 0922 AM

Just say no to the drugs :)


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#63 Panzermann

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Posted 06 June 2018 - 1020 AM

Go Krag and top it off whenever you need. :ninja:

Just say no to the drugs :)

 

Those fjord mosses are really serious stuff. ^_^

 

 

 


Cause it was maintenance nightmare.


Good point. I have only ssen them in hunting rifles and they were without problem, but being carried around from the car to the high stand is dfferent from conscripts mistreating their rifes or actual warfare. (I think actions derived from the Mannlicher-Schönauer are still manufactured)

 

 

The Krag pattern makes for a good hunting rifle too I have always thought. Easy to load with a scope mounted over the action. But handling single cartridges is a nightmare in battle.


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#64 TonyE

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Posted 06 June 2018 - 1542 PM

Bah, stripper clip junkies.


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#65 Simon Tan

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Posted 06 June 2018 - 2329 PM

We are not a perenially broke country like Greece and cannot afford such expensive rifles lime the Schonauer.

The Cavalry may elect to abstain from the initial tranches of the Mannlicher-Mauser Model 1908 if they feel that it does not suit them.
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#66 Chris Werb

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Posted 07 June 2018 - 0543 AM

I have honestly never heard of mags falling out unexpectedly being a problem with the Lee Enfield. The catch is well protected and takes deliberate effort to operate. Unlike the original arrangement on the L85A1...

As an aside, I think the US navy did issue very early Lees with multiple detachable magazines and webbing to carry them. That was a surprise to me!
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#67 Panzermann

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Posted 07 June 2018 - 0626 AM

I have honestly never heard of mags falling out unexpectedly being a problem with the Lee Enfield. The catch is well protected and takes deliberate effort to operate. Unlike the original arrangement on the L85A1...

As an aside, I think the US navy did issue very early Lees with multiple detachable magazines and webbing to carry them. That was a surprise to me!

 

No not falling out of the rifle. Just getting lost by soldiers being soldiers. And there were never enough magazines to go through with actually changing magazines to reload. Hence the addition of the bridge with the guides for a stripper clip in the SMLE Mark 1 before the war already.


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#68 Simon Tan

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Posted 07 June 2018 - 0702 AM

Chris...go watch the Lee Metford episode on C&Rsenal.
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#69 bojan

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Posted 07 June 2018 - 0732 AM

...The Cavalry may elect to abstain from the initial tranches of the Mannlicher-Mauser Model 1908 if they feel that it does not suit them.

Cavalry will have to learn to take it and shut up, since it is way less important than other branches. :P

They can get Mannlicher style carbine, with a nose cap if they don't find standard short rifle to their liking***. Cavalry carbine (if adopted) is just a shorter variant of the regular rifle. Artillery and infantry get same short rifle.  Possibly with L-E/Mannlicher style nose cap, to prevent damage to the barrel crown in field.

 

Now, a machinegun - Maxim? All the alternates are so-so, Hotchkiss was as reliable as Maxim, but feed-strips are no good being too easily damaged. Maybe think about metallic belt, cloth belts and cold weather do not mix well. Maybe think about heavier barrel Maxim w/o water cooling for a certain roles...

***Cavalry can have Madsen however, as can certain "light" infantry units.

 

Rural gendarmerie gets single shot 7x57 - Peabody-Martini are impossible to to convert to a reasonable mag feed, so should be gone ASAP from a military.

Some of the other rifles can be converted to a magazine feed 7x57mm for a "if shit hits a fan" use or various rear area uses.


Edited by bojan, 07 June 2018 - 0733 AM.

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#70 Chris Werb

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Posted 07 June 2018 - 1411 PM

Chris...go watch the Lee Metford episode on C&Rsenal.


OK 👍
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#71 Simon Tan

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Posted 07 June 2018 - 2201 PM

Tankovia signs repeater rifle contract with Steyrwerke.

 

Tankovina, 8th June 1908

 

The Tankovian Ministry of War announced that it had entered into a contract with Österreichischen Waffenfabriks-Gesellschaft of Steyr, Austria for the supply of an initial order of 3,000 Mannlicher-Mauser Model 1908 Standard Rifles in calibre 7x57mm along with accessories and fittings like bayonets and slings. This rifle was developed by Steyrwerke to meet Tankovian specifications and is based on the Steyr-Mannlicher M1895 in service with the Austro-Hungarian military.

 

At the same time, the War Ministry also announced that regional militias and police would have their mix of shoulder arms replaced by a standardized Reserve Rifle in the same 7x57mm calibre as the Model 1908 standard rifle. These will be rebuilt from existing stocks of Peabody-Martini rifles in service and storage. The work will be carried out by the Tankovia Arsenal in Novi Tankovina using components supplied by Steyrwerke. The Standard and Reserve Rifles will share the same barrel length, sights and fittings like cleaning rods and bayonets. 

 

It also announced that the trials of machineguns are ongoing and samples had been procured in the new standard calibre for evaluation during the annual manoeuvres to be held later this year.

 

The Assistant Minister of War explained that the reequipping of the Tankovian military would necessarily have to take place over a period due to the substantial fiscal impact.


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#72 Simon Tan

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Posted 07 June 2018 - 2259 PM

This is the FEG 14.M trials rifle from 1914. It is exactly what the M1908 is, a straight pull Mannlicher with a Mauser internal magazine in 7x57mm. It has the muzzle cap which I dislike and a folding bayonet (which I also dislike).

 

http://www.hungariae.com/Mann14.htm

 

I see the 1908 as having M95 style furniture and muzzle bits.


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#73 bojan

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Posted 08 June 2018 - 0543 AM

No folding bayo please, regular bayonet is way more useful for 1000 other things, including as improvised fighting knife. That said, we could easily adopt something like later Yugo M.12/24/40 bayonet/fighting dagger and have it be way more useful. Kinjal type was very popular fighting dagger in Balkans (Circassian influence). It is also "German style" w/o muzzle ring, so it minimizes impact on accuracy when fitted.

b4gs2t.jpg

tumblr_oktw6hLjKR1sfltapo1_1280.jpg

Original M.12 fighting dagger:

tumblr_inline_oktwcbZQdQ1s7egj0_500.jpg

Muzzle cap is useful for cavalry if we go with short length rifle for them. If they have their own carbine, regular rifle can do without one.


Edited by bojan, 08 June 2018 - 0551 AM.

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#74 Markus Becker

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Posted 08 June 2018 - 0703 AM

First of all C&Rsenal is an excellent channel. I can not recommend it enough.

 

I would like to go back to something Bojan said at the start: “You are describing Serbia. 1890.“

 

The country is not industrialized. That creates two problems. One, you can‘t make a modern rifle domestically for quite some time and two, you‘ll have problems getting the money to import them. Fun fact: Serbia got the money for their Mauser 71 from Austria-Hungary. As Othias explains in the Carcano episodes Italy was in a similar situation. They were not as industrialized as their rivals, so they designed a simple rifle they could mass produce with the industry they had. For that reason I prefer a good enough rifle that‘s affordable over the best one money can buy.

 

Caliber wise something in 6.5 to 7mm range is IMO the default choice in the years before the introcution of Spitzer bullets.

 

Machine guns? Schwarzlose 07. It’s a simpler design than the Maxim. Particularly with regard to the sealing of the water jacket


Edited by Markus Becker, 08 June 2018 - 0703 AM.

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#75 bojan

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Posted 08 June 2018 - 0735 AM

Problem with Carcano is that barrel life was only about 3000 rounds until at least mid-20s. I was one of the worst rated rifles in post ww1 tests*** here. Low barrel life means you can not train enough (or you can, but then you go into sliding economic scale that favors something better), which means your infantry will suck. It's action would also be marginal for 7x57mm probably (it certainly was for 7.9x57).

Realistically, Mauser was simplest rifle that could be produced and still be top notch. Mannlichers, even Romanian pattern turn-bolt are actually more complicated in a number of details. That was a real Mauser genius.

 

***Tests, and ratings:

 

Suitable (in order of preference):

Serbian 1910, German 98, and Austrian 1912 Mausers  - main problem was length which was seen as trivial to solve
Romanian Mannlicher 1893  - length and rimmed ammo
Lee-Enfield - main problem - shortest sight base, not suitable for very high pressure ammo, rimmed ammo - while it got lowest score notes say all of those are good and that differences minor and not in favor of one or other in any significant way.
A-H Mannlicher 1895 - length and rimmed ammo 

 

Partially suitable:
Mosin (best accuracy of the all tested, but nothing more to commend it)
Serbian 1899, Spanish 1893, Turkish 1890 and Mausers - lesser strength of action, somewhat marginal for 7.9x57mm which was already decided on as future cartridge
Berthier with 5 rounds - hard to convert to 7.9x57, long, rimmed ammo, weak action;

 

Not suitable
Berthier with 3 rounds - too little ammo, convertible to 5 round configuration however, weak action, hard to convert to 7.9x57
Carcano - barrel life only 3000 rounds, weak action, long, hard to convert to 7.9x57 
Lebel - obsolete tube magazine, rimmed ammo, weak action, non-suitable for conversion to short rifle
8mm Kropatschek - same + very weak action
Vetterli (does not say which one, but I suspect 1915 conversion, since all other rifles were small bore smokeless) - nothing positive was found out.

Vetterlis were only ones to be scrapped (or possibly given/sold to Albania), and considering that Werndls and other single shots were kept it says a lot about it...

 

More on topic - Serbian tests before adoption of M.80 Mauser-Milovanovic included 29 various designs (with total of 92 different rifle configurations tested).

Tests before adoption of M.99 included  two different Mauser designs, Mannlicher 1890 straight pull, Gew 88, Mannlicher 1892/93 turn-bolt, two versions of Krag (Norwegian and unknown one), Lebel 1886, Berthier 1892, Mosin, Remington (no idea which one), Winchester (also no idea), Carcano, Swiss G89, Lee-Enfield) plus two unknown rifles (one Belgian and one British), ditched in very early phase of tests.

Cartridges tested concluded that choice is between 6.5x55 Norwegian, 7x57 Mauser and 7.65x53 Mauser. In the end 7x57 was chosen as the rifles could be available fastest.


Edited by bojan, 08 June 2018 - 0756 AM.

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#76 bojan

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Posted 08 June 2018 - 0738 AM

What is an official revoler? My guess, this being Balkan is that Gasser is very popular, but it is nearing the end of useful life. Officers probably have private purchase Chamelot Delvigne or copies (like they did historically). Replace it now (with Swedish/Serbian Nagant being probably the choice) or wait to see if those new "automatic pistols" are any good?


Edited by bojan, 08 June 2018 - 0743 AM.

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#77 Markus Becker

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Posted 08 June 2018 - 0745 AM

Why? Poor steel or the gain twist rifling? Both are fixable. You can order new barrels from say Mauser or barrels with normal rifling. Anyway, the rifle is less complicated to manfucture(minute 22).

 

 

 

Heresy warning: Is the average conscript enough of a marksman that the difference between this or that bolt action makes a difference? 


Edited by Markus Becker, 08 June 2018 - 0746 AM.

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#78 TonyE

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Posted 08 June 2018 - 0808 AM

 

...The Cavalry may elect to abstain from the initial tranches of the Mannlicher-Mauser Model 1908 if they feel that it does not suit them.

Cavalry will have to learn to take it and shut up, since it is way less important than other branches. :P

 

The Cavalry does not appreciate depreciation from the unwashed hobos and goat herders of the infantry.

Yet, things are getting dicey.....a wealthy landowner who is also a reserve troop commander has on his own accord (and out of his own pocket) privately purchased a small batch of 6,5x53,5 SR Daudetaeu carbines and ammo for his troopers.......


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#79 Simon Tan

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Posted 08 June 2018 - 0831 AM

The lack of industrial base is why Standard Rifles are imported (just like Romania or Greece) and why Reserve Rifles are rebuilt domestically using parts from OWG.  We will no doubt try and substitute components as we develop local means of production, probably starting with furniture and small fittings with the eventual intention of producing major components. It also gives us a useful pool of components to cannibalize in case of supply disruption. 

 

OWG produced Peabody-Martinis so it's well within their ability.

 

I really don't see Tankovia producing Standard Rifle (or any turnbolt) domestically before 1914 comes around. I'm happy producing 7mm Mauser ammo!


Edited by Simon Tan, 08 June 2018 - 0837 AM.

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#80 Markus Becker

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Posted 08 June 2018 - 0857 AM

The lack of industrial base is why Standard Rifles are imported (just like Romania or Greece) and why Reserve Rifles are rebuilt domestically using parts from OWG.  

 

I really don't see Tankovia producing Standard Rifle (or any turnbolt) domestically before 1914 comes around. I'm happy producing 7mm Mauser ammo!

 

I'm just saying be careful what you import. The technologically most refined might not be the best choice in the end. Hm, there could be a lesson ahead. 

 

No argument about the path to a domestic production and just in case the straight pulls might turn out a bit too costly/complicated for comfort:

 

 

In 7x57 of course. 


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