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Main Gun Ammo - Revisited


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#941 Wiedzmin

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Posted 20 January 2018 - 1424 PM

 
There is an embarrassment in that the muzzle velocity which was quoted at the Bourges trials which demonstrated the superiority of L64 over the US M735 round, and which was subsequently requited in documents, is not now likely to be met. Although we remain confident of the superior performance of L64 the extent to which this point will of itself incline potential buyers, such as Belgians and possibly even the Dutch, to other solutions remains to be seen.
 
2. Shatter. Further trials of the basic WNC propellant had confirmed evidence of shatter at low temperatures. This was unacceptable to the UK. MGO asked whether we were being stupid as the propellant was used in the FRG 120mm KE round.S/GR2 RADHE said that the OB would not accept the situation. DGW(A) said that we knew that the Germans were having more accuracy problems and shatter could have something to do with that. In some batches the pressure at -40C was higher than it should have been. S/GR2 RARDE said that this propensity to shatter could not be «blended» out. Tests with reduced diameter granules had not improved the situation.
 
3. MV. Each batch of basic WNC propellant had shown a different temperature coefficient(the original was about 4 but the latest had reached 5.8). As a result RARDE had been forced to specify an MV of 1472m/sec.
 Competitive rounds were set at about 1465 m/sec whereas we had predicted 1505m/sec from the UK propellant at the IEPG competitive trials. It might be possible to blend out the temperature coefficient variation but that would not solve the shatter problem.
 
13. It is unlikely that, even if a successful development programme could be carried out in the time stated above, the MV will exceed 1470 m/s. This will give little edge over the Israeli M111 round, the only advantage of L64 being its greater shot development potential (W/Ni/Fe core, reduced drag). However, the ROFs have as yet given no indication that they are seeking to pursue the potential offer by W/Ni/Fe cores.
 
Conclusions
15. The L64 programme has run into serious trouble in the final stages of its development. A difficult decision must be made within a month as to whether it is wise, or indeed possible, to inject further effort to save the project in view of the scarce resources available at RARDE, PERME and DPEE.
 
 
THE ROF/SALES DILEMA
 
8. L64 development is already late. Performance has fallen below that demonstrated at Bourges in 1978 when 1505 m/s mv was announced. (Difficulties with temperature correction for chamber pressure have led to the 1471 m/s figure). Competition from the Israeli M111 round now being manufactured by Diehl in Germany is intense, this round being available in production quantities at very competitive price.

 

 


Edited by Wiedzmin, 20 January 2018 - 1448 PM.

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#942 Sovngard

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Posted 03 February 2018 - 1129 AM

Does the new Russian 125 mm APFSDS has an official GRAU designation ?

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#943 Jim Warford

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 2312 PM

122mm%20Tank%20Ammunition_Identification
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#944 Jim Warford

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Posted 24 February 2018 - 1644 PM

Some contradictory info regarding 122mm HEAT and APDS ammo...

"In 1961, along with many calibers, a new family of HEAT rounds appeared, including one for the 122mm gun of the T-10M, the M-62T2S gun. The ZBK4 or 3BK4 according to how you transliterate it, was powerful, 400mm penetration, and 440mm penetration for the improved 3BK4M of 1962. The ammo itself could be used indiscriminately in earlier guns like the D-25T, TA, TS, M-30 or D-49. So yes, D-25T definitely had HEAT, but that's only true for modernized IS-2M, IS-3M, T-10, T-10A, T-10B and SU-122-54 still in service in the 1960s. Same is true for APDS, introduced in 1967 for the M-62T2S (3BM11) but also usable with a reduced performance (about 270mm at 2km vs 320mm at 2km) in any D-25T type of gun."

"The first 122mm HEAT tank round mentioned in the article (?) was BK9 developed for M-62T2 gun (T-10M tank) in 1964 (200mm against inclined armour). There is no information if it could be used with D-25 gun, but M-62 had bigger cases and its basic AP round was BR-472, not 471. By that time, D-25-armed tanks would be obsolete anyway. In 1969 also BM11 "sabot" ammo was developed."

Can anyone provide any additional details regarding this information? Are any confirmed round-available dates known?

Lastly, can anyone confirm that the 122mm BR-471D APCBC round (not BR-471B), actually existed? It still shows-up on various websites, but there isn't anything that seems to confirm it actually existed...thanks!
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#945 Dark_Falcon

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Posted 04 March 2018 - 2246 PM

"Orbital ATK XM1147 Multi-purpose 120mm round. Will replace 4 tank rounds and add 2 further capabilities via programmable combinations of air-burst, point detonation and delayed modes. With the latest M829A4 APFSDS the Abrams need only carry two types of rounds for most targets."

 

DXMt2jbX0AANg8j.jpg


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#946 JW Collins

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Posted 05 March 2018 - 2053 PM

Very good addition to the Abram's loadout but it seems like it ought to have been in service a decade ago.
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#947 Dark_Falcon

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Posted 06 March 2018 - 0951 AM

Very good addition to the Abram's loadout but it seems like it ought to have been in service a decade ago.

 

A decade ago new ammunition development for tanks was not in fashion but now because of the shift to more conventional warfare such development has gotten greater funding priority.


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#948 Wiedzmin

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Posted 07 March 2018 - 0229 AM

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#949 methos

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Posted 07 March 2018 - 0412 AM

What type of APFSDS round is this and why did they test it against titanium armour?

 

E: M829?


Edited by methos, 07 March 2018 - 0439 AM.

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#950 KV7

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Posted 07 March 2018 - 0716 AM

What type of APFSDS round is this and why did they test it against titanium armour?

 

E: M829?

I cannot see what you would learn from shooting at homogeneous titanium, in fact I think you could estimate the penetration in Ti pretty well from the RHA penetration anyway.


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#951 DKTanker

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Posted 07 March 2018 - 0746 AM

 

What type of APFSDS round is this and why did they test it against titanium armour?

 

E: M829?

I cannot see what you would learn from shooting at homogeneous titanium, in fact I think you could estimate the penetration in Ti pretty well from the RHA penetration anyway.

 

Of course, they did it for shits and giggles.


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#952 KV7

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Posted 07 March 2018 - 0829 AM

 

 

What type of APFSDS round is this and why did they test it against titanium armour?

 

E: M829?

I cannot see what you would learn from shooting at homogeneous titanium, in fact I think you could estimate the penetration in Ti pretty well from the RHA penetration anyway.

 

Of course, they did it for shits and giggles.

 

Maybe PR to deploy on people that think Titanium is Adamantium ?


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#953 Panzermann

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Posted 07 March 2018 - 1154 AM

 

 

 

What type of APFSDS round is this and why did they test it against titanium armour?

 

E: M829?

I cannot see what you would learn from shooting at homogeneous titanium, in fact I think you could estimate the penetration in Ti pretty well from the RHA penetration anyway.

 

Of course, they did it for shits and giggles.

 

Maybe PR to deploy on people that think Titanium is Adamantium ?

 

 

Sometimes you have to put theory into practice to test it.


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#954 Jim Warford

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Posted 10 March 2018 - 0027 AM

Finally...some details regarding the BR-471B and BR-471D...

122mm_BR-471D_BR-471B_1.jpg
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#955 Wiedzmin

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Posted 10 March 2018 - 0614 AM

hKN3X95d1Ag.jpg

lQoeQ8Kk_Mo.jpg

L28/M392/DM13

bRvOxOqHu_g.jpg

L52?

CZxs2Jb8uEM.jpg

l28


Edited by Wiedzmin, 10 March 2018 - 0844 AM.

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#956 Panzermann

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Posted 11 March 2018 - 1052 AM

lQoeQ8Kk_Mo.jpg
L28/M392/DM13

counter clock starting at top:

  1. ballistic cap (aluminium alloy)
  2. projectile sabot
  3. obturator segment
  4. driving band
  5. lock ring
  6. hard core cap (tungsten carbide)
  7. lower sheath (steel with tracer charge)
  8. hard core (tungsten carbide)

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#957 Wiedzmin

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Posted 20 March 2018 - 0329 AM

mevwZ7L.jpg
12 cm Pfeil Pat87 Lsp - DM23
12 cm Pfeil Pat 90 Lsp - DM33
12 cm Pfeil Pat 98 Lsp - DM53?
12 cm HL Pat 87 - DM12 

Edited by Wiedzmin, 20 March 2018 - 0920 AM.

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#958 Interlinked

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Posted 20 March 2018 - 0707 AM

Nice photo, Wiedzmin. Interesting nose shape on the DM23 there.
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#959 Wiedzmin

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Posted 26 March 2018 - 0341 AM

105mm APDS L28 -  Projectile : 5,84 Kg core: 2.73kg

105mm APDS L52 -  Projectile : 6,49 Kg ?  core: 3.36kg ? 


Edited by Wiedzmin, 26 March 2018 - 0342 AM.

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#960 Wiedzmin

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Posted 08 April 2018 - 1203 PM

is there any difference between L26 and L27 APFSDS cores ? or L27 = L26 + new charge, and can be used only of L30 gun ?


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