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Israeli Afvs


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#1 Mighty_Zuk

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Posted 29 December 2019 - 0435 AM

I'm 99% sure I made this topic before but has disappeared since.
Anyway, IDF has just updated that it will begin converting the first battalion to the Merkava 4 Barak tank. Conversion will last 1 year (~30 tanks), and will begin in March 2020.
By March 2023 an entire brigade will be fully operational with the new tank.
Other than having a full brigade equipped with the new tank, the armored corps will celebrate another milestone - the entirety of the active service units will be equipped with versions of the Merkava 4, all with active protection.

To make matters clearer, the active arm of the armored corps is:
7th brigade - Mark 4M.
401st brigade - Mark 4M.
188th brigade - Mark 3D.
460th brigade (tank school) - 2 battalions Mark 4, 1 battalion Mark 3, with each battalion corresponding to a certain active brigade.

The reserves consist of 8 brigades in total, with the backbone of the corps being the Mark 3, with 1 brigade using the Mark 2, 2 brigades using Mark 4, and 5 brigades using Mark 3.

From this we can understand that by March 2023, yet another milestone will be reached - the Mark 4 will become the most numerous tank in the IDF.

The Barak will demand a higher learning curve, and TCs have already passed their officers' training and TC training and are ready to begin the assimilation process.
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#2 JasonJ

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Posted 29 December 2019 - 0444 AM

Take that 99 and add 1 to it because indeed you have :)
http://www.tank-net....43872&p=1420552
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#3 Mighty_Zuk

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Posted 29 December 2019 - 0912 AM

Take that 99 and add 1 to it because indeed you have :)
http://www.tank-net....43872&p=1420552


Where did it come from and where did it go?
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#4 JasonJ

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Posted 29 December 2019 - 0923 AM

Take that 99 and add 1 to it because indeed you have :)http://www.tank-net....43872&p=1420552

Where did it come from and where did it go?

My first guess is that the site on your computer is set to show only the past 30 days of threads. To find it, find where it says "recently updated" when viewing the AFV sub forums. You'll find it within a long green bar on the left side. If you look carefully to the right of it, there'll be more options in slightly different shade of green. Those options being "Start Date", "Most replies", "Most Viewed", and "Custom". Clicking on "Custom" will bring up a small tab where you can set how threads can be viewed. So setting it to "Show All" will have the site load up threads going back before my birth. Your Israel AFV thread was only on page 2 out of 77 pages of threads :)

Edited by JasonJ, 29 December 2019 - 0928 AM.

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#5 Nikolas93TS

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Posted 30 December 2019 - 0643 AM

That one brigade still having Merkava Mk 2 is wartime reserve?

I recall they announced stopping training new recruits on Mk 2 back in 2015, and that 7th Brigade transitioned to Mk 4M at the end 2016.

I think mothballed Mk 1 were also withdrawn in the roughly same period.
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#6 Mighty_Zuk

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Posted 01 January 2020 - 0641 AM

Thanks Jason!

That one brigade still having Merkava Mk 2 is wartime reserve?

I recall they announced stopping training new recruits on Mk 2 back in 2015, and that 7th Brigade transitioned to Mk 4M at the end 2016.

I think mothballed Mk 1 were also withdrawn in the roughly same period.


Yes it is wartime reserve. There are a total of 8 reserve brigades.
The training brigade is the 460th, which has battalions specially built for training recruits for specific brigades. So they have to keep the same tanks as active brigades have.
After their 3 years of mandatory service, soldiers are transferred to reserve units, where usually they are downgraded to older tanks. Active units with the best tanks get go to reserve units with the best tanks, and those serving on the oldest in active get the oldest in reserve, so the shock is minimal.
Going from a Mark 4 to a Mark 2 is quite a shock.

When a soldier becomes a reservist, his training on the "new" tanks is done in the brigade to which he is transferred.

A while ago, the IDF has shut down several brigades in a short interval, simultaneously retiring both Mark 1 and Magach tanks. The last Merkava 1 retired in 2014.
Now the armored corps and production facilities are optimized for supporting a 40 year lifetime for every tank, with provisions in place for a maximum delay of 4 years.
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#7 JasonJ

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Posted 01 January 2020 - 1913 PM

No problemo
https://youtu.be/CtNb1dnEaSQ

:)
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#8 Adam Peter

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Posted 03 January 2020 - 1125 AM

Turn one of the topics into a History of Israeli AFVs topic?

 

Why Israel developed her own line of tanks instead of waiting for the radically changed US design after 1973?


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#9 Mighty_Zuk

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Posted 04 January 2020 - 0739 AM

Turn one of the topics into a History of Israeli AFVs topic?
 
Why Israel developed her own line of tanks instead of waiting for the radically changed US design after 1973?

Israel could not rely on either the British or Americans for a steady supply of arms.
The US was complicit in the arms embargo on Israel, so that was a major factor in the decision.
For those unaware, the US had requested the British not to supply tanks to Israel, but at the same time itself would not supply Israel with tanks. It 'agreed' to send tanks via Italy, but that later turned out to be a complete ruse.

The 1973 war only reinforced this, when Israel had to put immense pressure on the US to resupply it. It took a threat to go nuclear on Egypt and Syria before that happened.

And of course another level to consider is that the 1973 war gave Israel a lot of study material to reshape its doctrine and have enough radical modifications they wanted to implement on tanks, that M-48 and M-60 just weren't fit for.

I do admit, however, my knowledge on said matters is mostly from memory so I cannot write a comprehensive analysis of the history, nor am I especially knowledgeable on the early history of armor in Israel.

Edited by Mighty_Zuk, 04 January 2020 - 0740 AM.

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#10 Adam Peter

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Posted 04 January 2020 - 1141 AM

Thanks. For me, the timeline of who is supplying Israel when is quite blurry.

 

I know at one point they produced a fighter plane, but give up on it despite limited export. On the other hand, they went on with a tank that resembles British design school, but said to contain enough US technology to be not exportable.


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#11 Mighty_Zuk

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Posted 07 January 2020 - 0621 AM

The IDF has just signed a contract for Iron Fist Light Decoupled systems for the Eitan, worth approximately $30 million, which is roughly 100 systems, or one brigade of APS-equipped Eitans.
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#12 Mighty_Zuk

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Posted 14 January 2020 - 1302 PM

IDF announced today the last brigade level Merkava 3-only exercise was conducted by the only active brigade operating it, and in March they'll have 1 battalion already operating the Mark 4 Barak.

In that exercise they've practiced hitting hovering drones with main gun armament.
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#13 bojan

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Posted 14 January 2020 - 1317 PM

With a programmable time-fused HE it would not be that much of a problem for a modern FCS.


Edited by bojan, 14 January 2020 - 1318 PM.

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#14 GARGEAN

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Posted 14 January 2020 - 1559 PM

Lasing drone is not that easy tho, esp if it is moving even slowly.
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#15 Colin

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Posted 14 January 2020 - 1607 PM

proximity fuzing perhaps?


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#16 GARGEAN

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Posted 14 January 2020 - 1609 PM

Possible, but not that handy either. Drones give quite low return due to size and material and thus require quite close shot.

TBH some time ago I wondered how effective can be done coincidence rangefinder with current tech...
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#17 Mighty_Zuk

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Posted 14 January 2020 - 1635 PM

For a Mark 4 that is indeed an easier task because it has radars, but a Mark 3 still has tools.
Simple (not really) target ID and automatic target tracking can keep the target in the middle of the crosshairs indefinitely. A laser range finder, already very precise due to need to laze prone-man-sized targets at several kilometers, should have no problem whatsoever.

And yes, the easiest solution is an HE-MP.

With a modern FCS, it's not a difficult task to achieve. The article basically just tells us the armored corps are also tasked with defeating drones instead of relying on mobile air defenses, which tells us they're quite serious about that threat.
The tech and gunnery skills are already there.
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#18 GARGEAN

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Posted 14 January 2020 - 1637 PM

For a Mark 4 that is indeed an easier task because it has radars

Not integrated into FCS tho
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#19 DB

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Posted 14 January 2020 - 1638 PM

Ask Apple. Though their "3d" enhanced photographs are limited by the minuscule baseline they use, the technology is trivial at even the mobile phone level now.

 

More specifically, 3d image reconstruction from images where not even the baseline is well characterised is well within the reach of modern image processing - it's used to develop meshes with high levels of detail in relatively short timescales and so should be very easy for relatively low-powered processors for the much simpler task of establishing a range from a small subset of correlated pixels.

 

I would suggest a number of problems with using large calibre rounds to defeat small drones. Magazine capacity, ammunition cost per kill, collateral damage, and weapon tracking rate plus time to target for ballistic rounds against highly manoeuvrable targets.


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#20 Mighty_Zuk

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Posted 15 January 2020 - 1504 PM

For a Mark 4 that is indeed an easier task because it has radars

Not integrated into FCS tho

That, we do not know. The Barak is supposed to add multiple sensors and create a more organized interface with sensor fusion, with operational capability in March this year. But even last year there were news that the 401st brigade has received unspecified upgrades to their FCS, said to be substantial.
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