Jump to content


Photo

Firearms of note and ridicule


  • Please log in to reply
3879 replies to this topic

#3861 shep854

shep854

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 19,018 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Birmingham AL, USA
  • Interests:Military History, Aviation

Posted 11 September 2018 - 1738 PM

That's cool and I'm not even an AR geek.

They got the color wrong, that tears at my eyes.  There are a number of reviews on YouTube and Full30.


  • 0

#3862 shep854

shep854

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 19,018 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Birmingham AL, USA
  • Interests:Military History, Aviation

Posted 11 September 2018 - 1742 PM

I like the idea, but If (when) I get an AR in .308, it will be a more recent version w/rail for optic.


  • 0

#3863 bojan

bojan

    Crew

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 10,666 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Belgrade, Serbia
  • Interests:Obscure tanks and guns.
    Obscure facts about well known tanks and guns.
    Obscure historical facts.

Posted 11 September 2018 - 2000 PM

Regarding retro ARs - here is Finish trials AR-10 in 7.62x39mm. Almost the same rifle (except it used AK mags) was trialed in Yugoslavia in early '60s, almost winning trials except there was no chance of locally manufacturing that Al receiver... I have handled one, currently in PPU depot, but taking pics was verboten... :(

snyqu9.jpg


Edited by bojan, 11 September 2018 - 2005 PM.

  • 0

#3864 shep854

shep854

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 19,018 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Birmingham AL, USA
  • Interests:Military History, Aviation

Posted 11 September 2018 - 2247 PM

Regarding retro ARs - here is Finish trials AR-10 in 7.62x39mm. Almost the same rifle (except it used AK mags) was trialed in Yugoslavia in early '60s, almost winning trials except there was no chance of locally manufacturing that Al receiver... I have handled one, currently in PPU depot, but taking pics was verboten... :(
snyqu9.jpg

Wow! Talk about a unicorn! Somebody needs to page Forgotten Weapons! Ian would surely think naughty thoughts. ;)

Edited by shep854, 11 September 2018 - 2248 PM.

  • 0

#3865 GARGEAN

GARGEAN

    Crew

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 1,659 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 12 September 2018 - 0118 AM

Regarding retro ARs - here is Finish trials AR-10 in 7.62x39mm. Almost the same rifle (except it used AK mags) was trialed in Yugoslavia in early '60s, almost winning trials except there was no chance of locally manufacturing that Al receiver... I have handled one, currently in PPU depot, but taking pics was verboten... :(
snyqu9.jpg

Who else was in competition?
  • 0

#3866 BansheeOne

BansheeOne

    Bullshit filter overload, venting into civility charger

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 12,826 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Berlin

Posted 12 September 2018 - 0210 AM

MhrAZ4O.jpg

 

b5b428d8-e165-4ea5-acb8-5d22de16a45b.jpg


  • 0

#3867 bojan

bojan

    Crew

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 10,666 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Belgrade, Serbia
  • Interests:Obscure tanks and guns.
    Obscure facts about well known tanks and guns.
    Obscure historical facts.

Posted 12 September 2018 - 0726 AM

Who else was in competition?

 

 

Yugoslav one?

Very, very shortened version:

 

vz.58, AK, BM59, M14 and "M59/61" which was a full-auto SKS using AK mag were trialed in early 1960s (1962 most probably).

M59/61, BM59 and M14 were soon eliminated.

 

All remaining rifles scored well in reliability (AR-10 only one withstanding mud test, AK only one withstanding ice test), AR-10 got most points due the best controllability, sights and low weight.

However there was no chance to manufacture AR-10 receiver, so than there was round two in about 1963.

 

In round two main competitors were AK, vz.58 and G3 (7.62x39mm version). G3 won, but nothing came out of it - official explanation was that there were some problem with licence for a domestic production concerning machinery for making stampings. So "second-best" rifle was chosen as a platform to be adopted for a local needs - AK

 

So then modified AK (M64) was trialed, but there were problems with some concepts, especially modularity and QCB for a SAW version, so backup, less serious modification finally got adopted as M70/M72 as a practically 4th choice....

 

 

To make matters even more confusing, there was a parallel program for paratroopers and special purpose units (domestic production was not required for that one, due the relatively small amount of weapons needed), that tried 5.56mm AK and Stoner 63 in late '60s. Both 5.56 and 7.62x39 AR-18 was also trialed at one moment.


Edited by bojan, 12 September 2018 - 0728 AM.

  • 0

#3868 Chris Werb

Chris Werb

    In Zod We Trust

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 22,696 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Orkney, Scotland, UK
  • Interests:But it's got electrolytes! They're what plants crave!

Posted 13 September 2018 - 1825 PM

Bojan, what specifically was the problem with aluminum production technology at that time? I had heard that the pressed steel AR18 was partly designed to overcome the problem of countries not having the capacity to make aluminium uppers and lowers, but why was this the case?


  • 0

#3869 bojan

bojan

    Crew

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 10,666 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Belgrade, Serbia
  • Interests:Obscure tanks and guns.
    Obscure facts about well known tanks and guns.
    Obscure historical facts.

Posted 13 September 2018 - 2010 PM

Bojan, what specifically was the problem with aluminum production technology at that time?

It used high performances presses with a very high degree of sophistication for a time. From a one of the people involved in the trials, it was theoretically possible to produce it w/o those, but it would mean that :

- production of receivers would introduce unacceptable amount of the bad receivers that would not pass quality control (estimate was up the 25%!)

- or it would require machinery usually reserved for an artillery weapons production, which was not efficient and amount of faulty receivers would still be relatively high (about 5%)

So, nothing came out of it...


  • 0

#3870 Simon Tan

Simon Tan

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 22,316 posts
  • Interests:tanks. More tanks. Guns. BIG GUNs!

Posted 13 September 2018 - 2048 PM

7075 forgings. And a butt load of machining.
  • 0

#3871 Loopycrank

Loopycrank

    Crew

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 610 posts

Posted 14 September 2018 - 0418 AM

Didn't Yugoslav paratroopers use STG-44s for some time?


  • 0

#3872 bojan

bojan

    Crew

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 10,666 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Belgrade, Serbia
  • Interests:Obscure tanks and guns.
    Obscure facts about well known tanks and guns.
    Obscure historical facts.

Posted 14 September 2018 - 0652 AM

Yes, for a quite a while, it was only declared obsolete in 1981. It was however largely replaced after 1967-68., first with Soviet made AKs as a temporary measure (at that time it was expected that Stoner 63 would be adopted for paras, but trials of it were a disastrous), then by domestic M70 series, but was used to teach weapon packaging and handling during the jump until early '80s.

They also used M1 (and possibly M2) carbine, mostly in support role among RCL gunners and mortar crew, but in '50s one man per section had M1 Carbine with RG attachment as a section grenadier.

They also used R-4 and M16A2 1991-2000s (M16 were not popular and were used only occasionally as they were long and lacked folding stock).


Edited by bojan, 14 September 2018 - 0657 AM.

  • 0

#3873 GARGEAN

GARGEAN

    Crew

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 1,659 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 14 September 2018 - 0725 AM

Yes, for a quite a while, it was only declared obsolete in 1981. It was however largely replaced after 1967-68., first with Soviet made AKs as a temporary measure (at that time it was expected that Stoner 63 would be adopted for paras, but trials of it were a disastrous), then by domestic M70 series, but was used to teach weapon packaging and handling during the jump until early '80s.
They also used M1 (and possibly M2) carbine, mostly in support role among RCL gunners and mortar crew, but in '50s one man per section had M1 Carbine with RG attachment as a section grenadier.
They also used R-4 and M16A2 1991-2000s (M16 were not popular and were used only occasionally as they were long and lacked folding stock).

What problems with Stoner?
  • 0

#3874 bojan

bojan

    Crew

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 10,666 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Belgrade, Serbia
  • Interests:Obscure tanks and guns.
    Obscure facts about well known tanks and guns.
    Obscure historical facts.

Posted 14 September 2018 - 0831 AM

Stoner 63 tended to fall apart after 3000-4000 rounds. Also quite sensitive to icy and dusty conditions.  It was described as a total disappointment after previous experience with AR-10.


Edited by bojan, 14 September 2018 - 0833 AM.

  • 0

#3875 shep854

shep854

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 19,018 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Birmingham AL, USA
  • Interests:Military History, Aviation

Posted 14 September 2018 - 0858 AM

Given that 'zip' guns are, by definition, homemade pieces of junk, this is not surprising:

Trying to shoot the sorry thing:

https://www.full30.c...8e0b3fdccfc2e81


Edited by shep854, 14 September 2018 - 0858 AM.

  • 0

#3876 Wobbly Head

Wobbly Head

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 3,004 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Moncton

Posted 14 September 2018 - 1049 AM

Given that 'zip' guns are, by definition, homemade pieces of junk, this is not surprising:

Trying to shoot the sorry thing:
https://www.full30.c...8e0b3fdccfc2e81


Simmilary the SA80 was referred to as a Gat in the British Army after this piece of British engineering
https://en.m.wikiped.../Gat_air_pistol
  • 0

#3877 bojan

bojan

    Crew

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 10,666 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Belgrade, Serbia
  • Interests:Obscure tanks and guns.
    Obscure facts about well known tanks and guns.
    Obscure historical facts.

Posted 14 September 2018 - 1200 PM

 

Simmilary the SA80 was referred to as a Gat in the British Army after this piece of British engineering
https://en.m.wikiped.../Gat_air_pistol

 

Lol, I had that one as a kid, it was a utterly useless piece of junk... :)


  • 0

#3878 Panzermann

Panzermann

    REFORGER '79

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 13,949 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Teutonistan

Posted 18 September 2018 - 1736 PM

7075 forgings. And a butt load of machining.

 

which is a point to be simplified imho. otherwise the in-line piston is an interesting idea. the chinese thought so too and built the wz.87 12,7 mm machine gun with such arrangement. having all forces inline with the bore certainly has much going for it.

 

 

 

At the moment the majority of new designs seem to be based on an extruded aluminium U-profile with an ar-18-ish system on the inside.


  • 0

#3879 Simon Tan

Simon Tan

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 22,316 posts
  • Interests:tanks. More tanks. Guns. BIG GUNs!

Posted 18 September 2018 - 2314 PM

Cheap. Really.


  • 0

#3880 Daan

Daan

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 1,822 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Where both sea and skies are grey.

Posted 21 September 2018 - 1416 PM

OCgvwb2.jpg

https://twitter.com/LostWeapons


  • 0




1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users