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When Defending Cops Becomes Impossible


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#21 JasonJ

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Posted 09 December 2017 - 0013 AM

 

"while" could have mnade all the differen.
 
"Kneel while keeping your hands up" and such.
 
DIdn't look good at the beginning. AFAIK, cops usually try to use a calming tone of language when communicating. He was with "shut up" at the beginning.

Usually, in the incidents I've seen on video, police are shouting at the suspect in a way guaranteed to ratchet up tension and provoke brain lock. That you can have more than one officer doing this at the same time saying different things is even more confusing.

 

 

Maybe the brain lock talking is for getting a person to lay down arms and get them to get on the ground on their own, I can recall seeing such things as well even if without out a clear memory of such procedures or specific videos. But he was already on the ground and was receiving instructions to move, so at this point, it would be better to keep things calm so as to gain the cooperation in the cop's instructions. Or am I mixing things up?


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#22 DKTanker

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Posted 09 December 2017 - 0026 AM

Usually, in the incidents I've seen on video, police are shouting at the suspect in a way guaranteed to ratchet up tension and provoke brain lock. That you can have more than one officer doing this at the same time saying different things is even more confusing.

Jacked up Barney Fife with a loaded gun when a cool unarmed Andy Taylor would have sufficed.


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#23 Paul G.

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Posted 09 December 2017 - 0102 AM

Insane. The cop set him up to fail. Guy was a new dad.

Edited by Paul G., 09 December 2017 - 0103 AM.

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#24 Adam_S

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Posted 09 December 2017 - 0110 AM

Apparently this is a picture of the cop's rifle in the Daniel Shaver shooting.

 

brailsford-ar-15.jpg?quality=65&strip=al


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#25 Paul G.

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Posted 09 December 2017 - 0128 AM

Of course the officers involved said every thing worked as it should. Wouldnt have done anything different. Guy caused his own death by his reckless actions.

IMO The officer who pulled the trigger wasnt responsible for Shaver's death, the Sgt giving the commands was.

Edited by Paul G., 09 December 2017 - 0145 AM.

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#26 toysoldier

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Posted 09 December 2017 - 0144 AM

Apparently this is a picture of the cop's rifle in the Daniel Shaver shooting.
 
brailsford-ar-15.jpg?quality=65&strip=al


The one with the "You are fucked" inscription -on the dust cover- that the jury wasn't allowed to see?
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#27 EchoFiveMike

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Posted 09 December 2017 - 0250 AM

Of course the officers involved said every thing worked as it should. Wouldnt have done anything different. Guy caused his own death by his reckless actions.

IMO The officer who pulled the trigger wasnt responsible for Shaver's death, the Sgt giving the commands was.

 

They're all responsible for that pathetic criminal clownery; the only difference is degree.  This "organization" was fucked up from the time they were issued lethal weapons.  Just picking random kids off a farm would give you a higher average maturity level.  

 

Wipe that entire department out and start fresh.  S/F....Ken M


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#28 glenn239

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Posted 09 December 2017 - 0816 AM

There's a small portion of cops out there that go off on any excuse.  Police should be required to occasionally wear equipment that monitors their emotional state during duty so that the ones that tend to go off on a dime can be identified and moved to other duties. 


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#29 Murph

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Posted 09 December 2017 - 0842 AM

Ok, here is my two cents:  I wasn't there, I did not see what the jury saw, so I cannot address what the jury got to see and what they did not see.  Understand that in any jury trial, the jury actually only gets to see part of the evidence, never all of it.  The Grand Jury gets to see it all, if it is done right and it so seldom is unfortunately.  

 

The video is horrific, just watching the video you cannot come to any other conclusion.

 

That being said, where is the rest of the context?  What was the call, what were the facts put out by the dispatchers to the officers who were responding?  What did they see from citizens at the scene and what were they told by citizens at the scene?  

 

I have been in a police shooting, I have almost shot several other people over the course of 23 years, I have been stabbed by a guy we were fighting (I was lucky, he hit my vest so I survived).  I have been on the receiving end of garbled, overly excited dispatch transmissions, I have also seen the chaos at situations where you have seconds to make a life or death decision.  

 

Stuff like this, makes it really hard to defend, and I am not trying to defend the officer who did what he did.  The ejection port "art" is completely unjustifialble, and just plain stupid.  The book Rise of the Warrior Cop, is good, but it has blind spots, the "Us vs Them" mentality has developed since the Clinton Era where the Left has consistently demonized cops.  How often do you a positive portrayal of police in the media?  Seldom if ever.

 

I have had guys approach me in felony situations screaming things like "Don't shoot me, I give up", and then as soon as they get within lunging distance they attack.  I was told by an old veteran cop (Texas Ranger), that you use short (3-4 words) sentences, loudly, and repeat it.  "Stop!" "Do Not Move" "Lay on the ground!, Show me your hands", because studies have shown that people remember, and react to short authoritative statements.  It has worked for me, I have not had to shoot anyone since 1997.  The guys laugh at me and tell me I have "the voice of Satan" when I am giving commands, because people tend to obey them.  

 

All that being said, the video is bad, really really bad.


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#30 KV7

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Posted 09 December 2017 - 0959 AM

There's a small portion of cops out there that go off on any excuse.  Police should be required to occasionally wear equipment that monitors their emotional state during duty so that the ones that tend to go off on a dime can be identified and moved to other duties. 

You can spot these people from a mile away. The problem is they are probably a very large proportion of police in many regions.

Fixing things using rules and punishments is going to be hard, because there is so much grey area. I think something like a station bonus for no shootings in a period would be a good idea, because the officers are still losing out when they shoot when is is borderline justifiable by the rules, but unnecessary using common sense reasoning. Other officers will then have an incentive to use peer pressure to reign in suspected trigger happy idiots.
 


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#31 MiloMorai

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Posted 09 December 2017 - 1017 AM

Why wasn't the guy cuffed when he was laying on the floor?

 

Murph, the call was about a guy with a rifle in a hotel room.


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#32 glenn239

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Posted 09 December 2017 - 1053 AM

KV7 You can spot these people from a mile away. The problem is they are probably a very large proportion of police in many regions.

 

 

We had one up here in Canada where a kid with a knife on a streetcar (unoccupied) was being talked down by a group of police that seemed to know what they were doing and were calm.  Then Joe Cowboy showed up and shot him dead within seconds.  Police I think sense that these predators in their midst do them more harm then good, but they were probably as afraid of this guy as the guy on the floor was.

Fixing things using rules and punishments is going to be hard, because there is so much grey area. I think something like a station bonus for no shootings in a period would be a good idea, because the officers are still losing out when they shoot when is is borderline justifiable by the rules, but unnecessary using common sense reasoning. Other officers will then have an incentive to use peer pressure to reign in suspected trigger happy idiots. 

 

 

Nothing is going to fix the problem except a better system of identifying and moving to desk jobs the minority of police that have a tendency to go off too quickly in circumstances that do not warrant it.  We've all been stopped by police where you have a sense that if things went pear shaped this guy would escalate to lethal force.  We've all met that guy.  Robotic police operating with police will help.  In this video, there is a bullying aspect to it where the weakness of the victim seems to be egging the shooter into escalation, like how a pit bull instinctively attacks the weak, not the strong.  A robo-cop might deter that at the instant it turns and orders pit bull cop to stand down immediately.


Edited by glenn239, 09 December 2017 - 1054 AM.

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#33 KV7

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Posted 09 December 2017 - 1139 AM

 

KV7 You can spot these people from a mile away. The problem is they are probably a very large proportion of police in many regions.

 

 

We had one up here in Canada where a kid with a knife on a streetcar (unoccupied) was being talked down by a group of police that seemed to know what they were doing and were calm.  Then Joe Cowboy showed up and shot him dead within seconds.  Police I think sense that these predators in their midst do them more harm then good, but they were probably as afraid of this guy as the guy on the floor was.

Fixing things using rules and punishments is going to be hard, because there is so much grey area. I think something like a station bonus for no shootings in a period would be a good idea, because the officers are still losing out when they shoot when is is borderline justifiable by the rules, but unnecessary using common sense reasoning. Other officers will then have an incentive to use peer pressure to reign in suspected trigger happy idiots. 

 

 

Nothing is going to fix the problem except a better system of identifying and moving to desk jobs the minority of police that have a tendency to go off too quickly in circumstances that do not warrant it.  We've all been stopped by police where you have a sense that if things went pear shaped this guy would escalate to lethal force.  We've all met that guy.  Robotic police operating with police will help.  In this video, there is a bullying aspect to it where the weakness of the victim seems to be egging the shooter into escalation, like how a pit bull instinctively attacks the weak, not the strong.  A robo-cop might deter that at the instant it turns and orders pit bull cop to stand down immediately.

 

I think the grey area is too big. Yes you can identify psychos but a lot of atrocities seem to be 'shooting this guy lowered the risk to me by 0.00001 %, and he did not follow instructions, I don't like shooting people but it is his bad luck, he should have done as he was told' etc. People like that are cold and callous but not noticeably deranged. They will never be disciplined because they can reasonably argue they are following procedure- although changing the procedures would also help.

But absolutely it will take a lot of political pressure, which is hard to apply. The comments above about the limitations of BLM are mostly astute.



 


Edited by KV7, 09 December 2017 - 1141 AM.

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#34 Jeff

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Posted 09 December 2017 - 1240 PM

The cop set him up to fail. 

I think that's a key point to make. It was like an extreme game of Simon Says with death the price of failure. They should have given firm but minimal commands to gain control of the situation and then cuffed the suspect. Instead, they had him doing the hokey pokey until he messed up and then they killed him. I appreciate that they were responding to a call of "suspect with a gun" but they had him dead to rights at this point.


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#35 Cinaruco

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Posted 09 December 2017 - 1245 PM

If the video involved a US soldier and a civilian it would be murder without a doubt, people would be spitting fire.
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#36 Paul G.

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Posted 09 December 2017 - 1254 PM


The cop set him up to fail. 

I think that's a key point to make. It was like an extreme game of Simon Says with death the price of failure. They should have given firm but minimal commands to gain control of the situation and then cuffed the suspect. Instead, they had him doing the hokey pokey until he messed up and then they killed him. I appreciate that they were responding to a call of "suspect with a gun" but they had him dead to rights at this point.

Completely agree.

Of note. Thw Sgt issuing the commands resigned from the force and relocated to the Philippines.
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#37 Colin

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Posted 09 December 2017 - 1322 PM

This was a classic case of poor leadership and to many cops at the scene. Generally I find the RCMP excel at talking down individuals, but in this case the senior officer did not stop and assess the situation, likely due to to many officers and overwhelming force. Had only 2 officer attended I suspect a much more nuanced approach would have happened.

 

https://en.wikipedia..._Taser_incident


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#38 Burncycle360

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Posted 09 December 2017 - 1448 PM

Factor in drunk, stressed and scared and you get brain locked. To some officers that is equated to reluctance to comply.  From the limited perspective it looked like he reached back to pull his pants up but stopped himself halfway through, but it was too late.   His instinct is to pull up his pants when he needs to, muscle memory of a lifetime of doing that overrode the instructions he had been given, and nervous officers jumped the trigger.


Edited by Burncycle360, 09 December 2017 - 1459 PM.

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#39 NickM

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Posted 09 December 2017 - 2023 PM

Then he should 'burn'...take Oscar Grant; he spent his weekends picking fights on The BART line and getting arrested; I'd heard he was in cuff and on the ground when the BART transit officer shot him--AFAIK the idiot transit cop thought he had a tazer in his hand & not his sidearm...which begs the question as to why the heck he was going to taze Grant when he was already on the ground in cuffs.


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#40 Calvinb1nav

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Posted 09 December 2017 - 2226 PM

I wouldn't condemn cops as a whole as in any group of people, there are always jackasses.   Wasn't there but it seems like the cop was in the wrong here.

 

One thing I think should change is police departments shouldn't get to investigate their own shootings.  There should probably be a state-level agency that does it.  No military unit that has an aircraft mishap investigates it themselves; outsiders come and do it to get a more objective look.  

 

Also, I don't think police should use military ranks nor military rank insignia.  I think in some cases that stimulates the us-versus-them mentality.  

 

At any rate, the vast majority of police are normal, decent people trying to do a very difficult job while being under-resourced and under-trained (we expect them to be social workers and ombudsman too).  


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