743 replies to this topic

[Stuart Galbraith]

Not seen this anywhere else here. From what Im seeing on CNN this morning, its starting to get quite hairy.

 

https://www.bbc.co.u...-china-48591001

 

Thousands of protesters and police in Hong Kong are engaged in a stand-off as anger grows over a bill which would allow extradition to mainland China.

Early on Wednesday protesters, some wearing face masks and helmets, blocked key roads around government buildings.

Police in riot gear responded by using pepper spray on protesters to disperse them and said they were prepared to use force.

 

The Legislative Council (LegCo) has now delayed the second reading of the bill.

 

The pro-Beijing LegCo said Wednesday's scheduled meeting would instead be held at an unspecified "later time".

Despite the opposition the government is continuing to push for the extradition bill and it is expected to pass its final vote on 20 June.

 

What's happening today?

Thousands of protesters - mostly young people and students - took to the streets and attempted to block access to government buildings ahead of the scheduled debate of the bill.

 

"This behaviour has gone beyond the scope of peaceful gatherings," the Hong Kong Police Force said in a tweet on Wednesday.

"We call on [protesters] to leave as soon as possible... otherwise we will use appropriate force.

Matthew Cheung, Hong Kong's administration chief, has urged protesters to stop occupying major roads and disperse as soon as possible, the Sing Tao Daily reports.

But one young protester, decked in a black mask and gloves, told news site AFP that they would not "leave [until] they scrap the law".

Political party the Hong Kong National Front has threatened to enter the Legislative Council and remain "indefinitely" on strike if the government does not withdraw the bill.

   

Critics of the bill of amendments to the extradition laws cite the alleged use of torture, arbitrary detentions and forced confessions in the Chinese judicial system.

The government has promised legally binding human rights safeguards and other measures it says should alleviate concerns.

Nevertheless, this has led to the largest rallies the territory has seen since it was handed back to China by the British in 1997.

Police said they are also investigating death threats made against Hong Kong's Chief Executive, Carrie Lam, and members of the justice department over the bill.

 

 

 

At the moment they are using tear gas on unarmed protesters. I guess we should be thankful they have refrained from T69's this time.

 

 

[JasonJ]

Yeah, someboday started it here:
http://www.tank-net....42830&p=1431712

[Stuart Galbraith]

Ok fair enough, I missed that one.

 

Im finding it disturbing though how our values have been eroded. In 1989 the international community shit a brick over Tianamen square. Now it looks like Hong Kong might go the same way, and nobody really seems interested.  In particular the British Government which, it being a former Colony, you would have thought we would have some latent interest. Nothing. All we are worried about is whether signing up to Huawei is going to upset Donald Trump or not.

[JasonJ]

Ok fair enough, I missed that one.

 

Im finding it disturbing though how our values have been eroded. In 1989 the international community shit a brick over Tianamen square. Now it looks like Hong Kong might go the same way, and nobody really seems interested.  In particular the British Government which, it being a former Colony, you would have thought we would have some latent interest. Nothing. All we are worried about is whether signing up to Huawei is going to upset Donald Trump or not.

 

Yeah, I don't know how to explain it. I suppose those values are not one of priceless things that can't be purchased with a Mastercard but are among the "everything else". Purchased with Mao faced currency bills.

[Murph]

How long before they send in the tanks?  Hong Kong is a warning as to what the Left is planning for us.

[JasonJ]

How long before they send in the tanks?  Hong Kong is a warning as to what the Left is planning for us.

 

Biden was at it again but a little less obvious than his previous tongue tripping. "Our workers are three times more productive than theirs in the Far East, I mean I mean, in Asia, so what are we worried about"

[Stuart Galbraith]

Can we please stop channeling this through US Politics though? Personally im wholly bored by the Trump Vs Anyone Else narrative.

 

Now they are using rubber bullets.

https://www.bbc.co.u...-china-48591001

[JasonJ]

The one good thing is that the extradition bill got postponed. But to when was not announced. So it is to be seen when the legislature will try to pass the bill again soon or later. Here's an old post with reference info on the HK 2016 legislature election. It is worth considering how pro-Beijing people in HK and Beijing itself has shown using time against demonstrators in the 2014 umbrella mass demonstrations, draggin that process out to nearly 4 months long. People have limited toleration when it comes to the long term. Over a period of months, some people start getting irritated and frustrated with demonstrations disrupting everyday living, and then CCP  or other Pro-Beijing media then start to use that as painting the demonstrators as ill-guided, anti-Chinese, uncivilized, and so on.

 

Some footage of the protests groups being broken up.

 

[Stuart Galbraith]

It says a lot when the PRC are behaving like just the kind of Colonial nation they accused Westerners of behaving. They have learned absolutely nothing.

[JasonJ]

It says a lot when the PRC are behaving like just the kind of Colonial nation they accused Westerners of behaving. They have learned absolutely nothing.

 

To that they often change gears to the "might makes right" as history has shown so it is necessary, plus the "it's Chinese sovereign territory so internal issue so butt out". And that "sovereign territory" argument goes to Tibet, Xinjiang, Taiwan and the South China Sea as well. My way or the high way is the attitude. To then sometimes a counter comparison of PRC military to the US so as to make a point that PRC can't do it but to which PRC posters respond with US is leaving the Pacific, they all talk no show, etc.

 

Only to then on the next day they say PRC is fair and prosperous and that democracy is messy and unordered and smear the west with examples of Paris or DC demonstrations.

 

In other words, they literally say whatever drags out the argument, reality is twisted, they keep pressing argument points. To break just one takes dozens of long drawn out engagements to the point that eventually they feel stupid.

 

So really, it is not about learning, it is about Pro-CCP, Pro-CCP, Pro-PRC, Pro-PRC. If what is to be learned is contrary to what the CCP says, then it is wrong and troll it to be wrong. And they reinforce each other to literally make freedom of speech work towards their end just by sheer volume and overloading contrary views.

Edited by JasonJ, 12 June 2019 - 0734 AM.

[DKTanker]

Can we please stop channeling this through US Politics though? Personally im wholly bored by the Trump Vs Anyone Else narrative.

 

Now they are using rubber bullets.

https://www.bbc.co.u...-china-48591001

Huh?  The only one that brought up Trump, is you.  Perhaps you might brush up on US politics if you're going to whine about it, that YouTube video features Joe Biden.  See, it's right there in the screenshot of the video.

[Stuart Galbraith]

 

Can we please stop channeling this through US Politics though? Personally im wholly bored by the Trump Vs Anyone Else narrative.

 

Now they are using rubber bullets.

https://www.bbc.co.u...-china-48591001

Huh?  The only one that brought up Trump, is you.  Perhaps you might brush up on US politics if you're going to whine about it, that YouTube video features Joe Biden.  See, it's right there in the screenshot of the video.

 

 

Oh for Gods sake, just stop already. Not EVERY problem begins and ends inside the Washington Beltway.

[JasonJ]

In one way that it is related is that Hong Kong demonstrations are stronger or weaker depending on how the international world handles it. If POTUS (or would be) wants to talk about PRC not being bad guys, and thus consequently cutting away the standing foundation for any lengthy arguments about CCP government control, censorship, pre-approving candidates for HK, and so on, in the US, then that would dampen any international support from the US, exactly what the CCP wants. The US is big and has a lot of influence at play but won't come around if it isn't part of the discussion or thinking.

 

As an addition, sometimes I do wish there was more activity in the international related topics by the US contingent but sometimes it seems fine to just let them deal with the domestic stuff, I certainly don't have the time to go into the whole Mueller thing myself or whatever is the domestic political tool for verbal attacks of the day so is a good thing that some people do have the time for that.

Edited by JasonJ, 12 June 2019 - 0807 AM.

[sunday]

Please remind this next time someone puts forward the argument about not returning Gibraltar to Spain because of the desires of the residents of the rock.

 

I know part of the territories of HK were leased until 1997, but some had a perpetual lease.

[Stuart Galbraith]

Please remind this next time someone puts forward the argument about not returning Gibraltar to Spain because of the desires of the residents of the rock.

 

I know part of the territories of HK were leased until 1997, but some had a perpetual lease.

 

What  has that to do with anything? It was Spains choice not to lease Gibraltar. It was China's choice to lease Hong Kong. There is no similarity whatsoever, not least because the GDP is probably several thousand times what Gibraltars will ever be. Lets also further overlook that Britain is an (increasingly addled admittedly) home of Democracy, and the PRC are a bunch of Communist Thugs wholly absent of any Democratic principles. Im sure there are many other difference but that will do for starters.

 

You know what frustrates me about this site, is intelligent people take wholly dissimilar arguments and  roughly conflating them and saying that 'proves' their own personal hobby horse. Why not look at things at the facts, which is the PRC is crushing one more (increasingly limited) Democratic outpost, and nobody, absolutely nobody, is living a finger in criticism? Compare and contrast to Hungary and Czechoslovakia and say this shouldnt bother us? Please, stop obscuring the facts with whataboutism.

 

Jesus, why do I even bother?

[sunday]

 

Please remind this next time someone puts forward the argument about not returning Gibraltar to Spain because of the desires of the residents of the rock.

 

I know part of the territories of HK were leased until 1997, but some had a perpetual lease.

 

What  has that to do with anything? It was Spains choice not to lease Gibraltar. It was China's choice to lease Hong Kong. There is no similarity whatsoever, not least because the GDP is probably several thousand times what Gibraltars will ever be. Lets also further overlook that Britain is an (increasingly addled admittedly) home of Democracy, and the PRC are a bunch of Communist Thugs wholly absent of any Democratic principles. Im sure there are many other difference but that will do for starters.

 

You know what frustrates me about this site, is intelligent people take wholly dissimilar arguments and  roughly conflating them and saying that 'proves' their own personal hobby horse. Why not look at things at the facts, which is the PRC is crushing one more (increasingly limited) Democratic outpost, and nobody, absolutely nobody, is living a finger in criticism? Compare and contrast to Hungary and Czechoslovakia and say this shouldnt bother us? Please, stop obscuring the facts with whataboutism.

 

Jesus, why do I even bother?

 

 

I agree with you in decrying China riding over HK democracy, but you forgot that most of HK was leased in perpetuity, so part of HK could still be British. Perhaps HK would have been uneconomical for HM Treasury, but England could have presented herself as a champion of Ethics.

This proves that the desires of the Gib inhabitants is only an excuse HM Govt uses in order to keep the last colony in Europe. Unless Spain, even Franco's Spain, looks like a worse country than China a few years after Tian An Men.

 

So, yes, this has relevance in the Gibraltar question, IMHO.

Edited by sunday, 12 June 2019 - 0849 AM.

[Stuart Galbraith]

Well I cant see it, but I have the flu at the moment, so perhaps my cognitive functions are already clogged up.

 

Talk on the news of a million person protest. Which is pretty good even in massively populated China.

[sunday]

Get well, Stuart.

[JasonJ]

Some footage of some of the more violent scenes, not quite at the bloody level, but violant nonetheless.

 

First one was on Monday.

 

Second is today at the a legislature building.

[JasonJ]

Two Globaltimes (basically CCP mouth) articles both dated June 12th.

 

"Foreign powers at blame for violence and scale."

Spoiler

Without powerful interference from foreign forces, especially the US, opposition groups would not have the capability to enact such violent incidents in the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region (HKSAR) today, experts said Tuesday, after local opposition groups violently stormed the Legislative Council to oppose the extradition law amendment.

According to a report by Hong Kong-based media outlet takungpao.com on Tuesday, opposition groups against the extradition law amendment, which could allow the Chinese mainland to extradite criminals from Hong Kong, organized protesters to violently storm the Legislative Council of the HKSAR.

Another Hong Kong-based media wenweipo.com reported that opposition groups were cooperating with extreme Hong Kong-separatism activists to plan another assault against the Legislative Council early on Wednesday, and they will use weapons including "bottles filled with gas and oil paint, as well as edge tools, iron sticks and small-sized crossbows to attack police officers."

The South China Morning Post reported that the violence started on Sunday. "Protesters used bottles and metal barriers to attack police who tried to drive them away with batons and pepper spray outside Hong Kong's legislature late on Sunday night," the newspaper said.

The violent incident has brought heavy criticism from different groups in Hong Kong, since this has seriously harmed the stability and prosperity of the city.

Experts noted that without the interference from foreign forces, especially the US, the opposition groups and extreme Hong Kong separatists would not have been able to launch such a serious attack.  

Hung Kam-in, deputy secretary-general of the Democratic Alliance for the Betterment and Progress of Hong Kong, told the Global Times that Hong Kong is a civilized city. "It should have no tolerance for violent activity. The people who conducted and planned this violence should be punished according to the law," he said.

Hung also said that extradition according to the law is very normal in many countries and regions in the world, including the US. "Without this amendment, there will be loopholes in Hong Kong's legal system, and those Western media and officials' stance on the matter is truly ridiculous."

"Inciting young people to street violence is very irresponsible. It will bring great damage to the social order of Hong Kong and take the next generation on a road with no return," said Chan Cheuk-hay, a Hong Kong member of the National Committee of the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference.

The real purpose of some people who have instigated such extreme behavior is to damage the policy of one-country, two-systems, Hung noted.

Hung, as a public representative, also interviewed many locals from different communities, and he said that "the vast majority of them would support the extradition bill if they knew what it's really about. They don't want to see Hong Kong, one of the safest cities in the world, become a haven for terrorists, murderers and rapists."

Foreign forces

Geng Shuang, spokesperson of China's Ministry of Foreign Affairs, said at a press conference on Tuesday that affairs in Hong Kong are China's domestic affairs and no other country, organization or individual has the right to interfere.

In response to Hong Kong's move to amend its laws, US State Department spokeswoman Morgan Ortagus told reporters Monday that the US was gravely concerned about proposed amendments to Hong Kong laws, and that the amendments "could undermine Hong Kong's autonomy" and "damage Hong Kong's business environment."

Geng urged the US to exercise impartiality over Hong Kong's amendment, and to stop interfering in China's domestic affairs.

Tian Feilong, an associate professor at Beihang University in Beijing and an expert on Hong Kong, told the Global Times that "although the US and other foreign forces have no right to governance in Hong Kong, they have powerful influence to make trouble in the city. This proves that the legal system and law enforcement in Hong Kong should be improved."

Due to the worsening China-US ties and escalating trade war, the US is using its influence to make trouble for China, and this will damage China's national interests, Tian said.

"This will divide society in Hong Kong and weaken the efficiency of the governance for the HKSAR government; for the whole country, it might further damage China's national strategy to build the Guangdong-Hong Kong-Macao Greater Bay Area."

Chan, who is also the principal of the Hong Kong College of Technology, stressed that the violence was a serious issue.

"Hong Kong's future would be finished if their misdoings are not restrained," he said.

Chan believes that the incident has occurred under the background of "the struggle between great powers."

 

"People can see clear double standards from many Western countries. They insist on 'zero tolerance' to violence in their home countries, but use a totally different standard when it comes to Hong Kong," he said.

Tian noted that China needs to learn from the fact that some opposition groups in Hong Kong will firmly stand with foreign forces to instigate internal conflicts and hijack public opinion in the city, so to some extent, they are illegal forces rather than normal political groups in Hong Kong.

China has repeatedly expressed its stance on the issue, Geng said, noting that the HKSAR government has already heard opinions from the public on amending the extradition law and has made two drafts. "The Chinese central government will continue to firmly support the SAR government's move to amend the law."

Tian said the incident should remind the HKSAR government and the Central Government of China to speed up legislative efforts to provide a legal basis for strict law enforcement, especially regarding national security and to crackdown foreign forces and extremists in the city, since patriotic forces in Hong Kong cannot solve problems independently.

HKSAR Chief Executive Carrie Lam Cheng Yuet-ngor said Monday that the Hong Kong government will not withdraw the extradition bill, but vowed to further explain its purpose to ease public concerns, Radio Television Hong Kong reported on Monday.

http://www.globaltim...t/1153926.shtml

 

 

"Mainland China cares more about HK than any foreign power" (which obviously is playing down the contents of the extradition bill)

Spoiler

Is there anyone on the Chinese mainland who wishes Hong Kong lose its capitalist character and become more like a mainland city? It cannot be said there is no one who so desires. But it is definitely not the mainstream view on the mainland and it is well-nigh impossible that it would become a policy of the Chinese central government.

Most people on the mainland hope Hong Kong will stick to the "one country, two systems" policy, maintain its unique social landscape based on capitalism, because that is what makes Hong Kong interesting and worthy of visiting.

The opposition in Hong Kong keeps claiming that Beijing will crack down on Hong Kong's fundamental values, including the rule of law and freedom, hoping to turn Hong Kong into a mainland city and changing Hong Kong people's way of life. Such claim is not only far from the principle of the "one country, two systems" policy, but also is inconsistent with the Chinese mainland's attitude toward Hong Kong.

Western systems encourage political confrontation, which could easily push the different sides toward polarization. Now it's worrying that some people in Hong Kong have gone too far over the issue, turning the political game in Western society into a real confrontation in the city, hurting Hong Kong's image as a global financial center and casting a shadow over the city's future.

It should be noted that the tempo of political confrontation in Western societies changes with the rhythm of elections. But in non-Western societies, political confrontation often goes to extremes and hits a dead-end, affecting social governance mechanisms and even leading to tragedies. Hong Kong must not learn from them.

Since Hong Kong has adopted capitalism, it is normal to see Western-style symptoms. But Hong Kong should know how far to go and when to stop. Observers from the Chinese mainland sometimes go breathless with anxiety to see certain forces in Hong Kong addicted to political games and almost creating turmoil.

Other than Hong Kong society itself, the Chinese mainland cares most about the city. Because Hong Kong is part of China and the state it is in - good or bad - has to do with the country. Making Hong Kong better is important for China to progress in a harmonious way.

As for others, why should they wish for the good of Hong Kong? In our view, Taiwan island authorities want to see nothing but the decline of Hong Kong to prove that their separatist direction is correct. Washington cares more about turning Hong Kong into a tool to pressure Beijing and create trouble. In the meantime, the UK could be in a different mood and probably miss the old days of colonizing the city. But if Hong Kong is better than it was as a colony, won't it be a case of sour grapes for London? We believe it is not difficult for Hong Kong society to see these subtleties.

The Hongkongers must keep a clear mind so that they won't be fooled by Western political elites or trapped in Western-style political game. The "one country, two systems" policy is a new thing. When encountering problems, they should follow the Basic Law and find solution through consultation.

It is not difficult to imagine that once Hong Kong runs into chaos, those who engage in radical politics will gain in opportunistic ways; and Western politicians will only be bystanders. Hong Kong people will suffer the biggest losses. Such a nightmare must not be allowed to come true in Hong Kong.

http://www.globaltim...t/1153968.shtml