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Greek F-16 Upgrade


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#1 Dawes

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Posted 17 October 2017 - 1812 PM

Looks like Lockheed Martin's F-16V configuration is starting to sell:

 

http://www.dsca.mil/...reece_17-54.pdf


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#2 ferongr

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Posted 18 October 2017 - 1515 PM

From photos online it seems that the AESA array is fixed in place. From literature online it seems that AESA field of fiew is limited to around 100-120 degrees. Looking at photos of the F16V it doesn't seem like there are other arrays on other locations for ground search and for looking at the sides. How would this impact the aircraft's effectiveness in a non-interceptor role? The F-16 is the mainstay of the HAF and it's expected to perform in all roles a multi-role aircraft would.


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#3 DB

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Posted 18 October 2017 - 1537 PM

It's not clear to me exactly how much, but the images I see of what look like SABR appear to be steerable to left and right. 

 

http://www.f-16.net/...rticle4763.html

 

The triangular shape of the antenna mount is suggestive of this, as are what appear to be actuating rods at the top and bottom perforating the bulkhead.


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#4 GARGEAN

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Posted 18 October 2017 - 1616 PM

From photos online it seems that the AESA array is fixed in place. From literature online it seems that AESA field of fiew is limited to around 100-120 degrees. Looking at photos of the F16V it doesn't seem like there are other arrays on other locations for ground search and for looking at the sides. How would this impact the aircraft's effectiveness in a non-interceptor role? The F-16 is the mainstay of the HAF and it's expected to perform in all roles a multi-role aircraft would.

Most, if not all, AESA radars are fixed in place. This gives good weight and price reduction with reliability boost. Albeit things like Irbis have huge advantage over such things(as APQ-79/82). 


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#5 Chris Werb

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Posted 18 October 2017 - 1644 PM

I thought AESAs still have an disadvantage of FoV compared to manually scanning radars hence there are hybrids which mechanically scan with an AESA?


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#6 ferongr

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Posted 18 October 2017 - 1746 PM

The Gripen E mounts the array on a repositioner (basically a rotating plarform) at an angle and by rotating the array around the effective FOV is greatly extended. From perusing photos of the SABR as mounted on actual airframes, it doesn't really look like it can be moved

 

https://farm9.static...0a2505b71_o.jpg


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#7 GARGEAN

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Posted 19 October 2017 - 0121 AM

I thought AESAs still have an disadvantage of FoV compared to manually scanning radars hence there are hybrids which mechanically scan with an AESA?

That is extremely rare solution, AFAIR not used on any serial aircraft.
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#8 Charles

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Posted 19 October 2017 - 1420 PM

I thought AESAs still have an disadvantage of FoV compared to manually scanning radars hence there are hybrids which mechanically scan with an AESA?

That is extremely rare solution, AFAIR not used on any serial aircraft.

Not yet, I believe the next radar system being currently fitted to T2, T3 and new build Eurofighters is CAPTOR-E. This AESA has a fov of approx 200 degrees; due to its ability to mechanically scan as well. I suppose it works, after spending 1b euros on it, it should.

Charles
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#9 GARGEAN

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Posted 19 October 2017 - 1534 PM

Not yet, I believe the next radar system being currently fitted to T2, T3 and new build Eurofighters is CAPTOR-E. This AESA has a fov of approx 200 degrees; due to its ability to mechanically scan as well. I suppose it works, after spending 1b euros on it, it should.


Charles

 

Well, we'll see when it will be installed)
In the same time N036 already uses much better implementation of fixed AESA with two additional side-looking arrays. Egh... Even dunno where's EF problem. Cost?


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#10 Charles

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Posted 19 October 2017 - 1543 PM

Not yet, I believe the next radar system being currently fitted to T2, T3 and new build Eurofighters is CAPTOR-E. This AESA has a fov of approx 200 degrees; due to its ability to mechanically scan as well. I suppose it works, after spending 1b euros on it, it should.

Charles

Well, we'll see when it will be installed)
In the same time N036 already uses much better implementation of fixed AESA with two additional side-looking arrays. Egh... Even dunno where's EF problem. Cost?

Cost, and the bureaucracy that is both MOD and Selex.
The pilot's who have flown the CAPTOR-E in test Eurofighters seem happy enough with it; better than what the a/c is currently fitted with (their experience).

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#11 Josh

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Posted 20 October 2017 - 1546 PM

From photos online it seems that the AESA array is fixed in place. From literature online it seems that AESA field of fiew is limited to around 100-120 degrees. Looking at photos of the F16V it doesn't seem like there are other arrays on other locations for ground search and for looking at the sides. How would this impact the aircraft's effectiveness in a non-interceptor role? The F-16 is the mainstay of the HAF and it's expected to perform in all roles a multi-role aircraft would.

Most, if not all, AESA radars are fixed in place. This gives good weight and price reduction with reliability boost. Albeit things like Irbis have huge advantage over such things(as APQ-79/82).


+1. AESA fighter radars are almost always fixed and limited to ~100-120 degrees of detection, so this particular installation isn't unique. The only exception I can think of in fighter aircraft is the Su-35 (EDIT: the IRBIS mentioned above). There are also ship based systems that are AESA with mechanical rotation for weight saving (Sampson being the largest I can think of) as well as the E-2D.

EDIT: correction, E-2D is PESA.

Edited by Josh, 20 October 2017 - 1549 PM.

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#12 mnm

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Posted 20 October 2017 - 1624 PM

Looks like Lockheed Martin's F-16V configuration is starting to sell:

 

http://www.dsca.mil/...reece_17-54.pdf

 

2.4 blliion USD? Greece? So who is going to really be paying for that?


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#13 Dawes

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Posted 20 October 2017 - 1719 PM

Under the Foreign Military Financing programs, loans (or sometimes outright grants) are provided to help foreign customers obtain US equipment. Not sure what the case is here, though.


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#14 GARGEAN

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Posted 21 October 2017 - 1254 PM

+1. AESA fighter radars are almost always fixed and limited to ~100-120 degrees of detection, so this particular installation isn't unique. The only exception I can think of in fighter aircraft is the Su-35 (EDIT: the IRBIS mentioned above). There are also ship based systems that are AESA with mechanical rotation for weight saving (Sampson being the largest I can think of) as well as the E-2D.

EDIT: correction, E-2D is PESA.

Whole N011 family on Su-30 too. Albeit they are, just like N035, PESA.
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#15 alejandro_

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Posted 22 October 2017 - 0509 AM

2.4 blliion USD? Greece? So who is going to really be paying for that?

 

The Greek government has stated that the cost limit for the upgrade is 1.1 blliion euros.

 

http://www.ekathimer...-over-f-16-deal


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#16 Dawes

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Posted 22 October 2017 - 1240 PM

Sounds like quite a disparity.


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#17 TTK Ciar

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Posted 22 October 2017 - 1414 PM

Greece has E-99 already in inventory. Perhaps the HAF believes deploying it with F-16V makes up for the latter's limited radar FoV?
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#18 mnm

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Posted 22 October 2017 - 2231 PM

Turkey being what it became, I suppose NATO needs to take care of that South corner. Poor Mr Tsipras, he must buy anti-acids by the truckload, this is all so far from his previous rethoric! One has to credit him for his sense of responsibility.
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#19 ferongr

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Posted 03 April 2018 - 1331 PM

http://www.ekathimer...by-us-officials


2018-02-24

A decision on whether Greece will go ahead with updating its air force fleet of 85 F-16s is expected next week after a weekend visit by a team of nine representatives of the American government and eight representatives of US aerospace firm Lockheed Martin aimed at exploring whether a deal can be reached.

Sources say that the main obstacle to a deal is the programs launch date and the tight payment schedule. Right now, the proposal is for a first installment this year of 400-450 million euros, with an additional 200 million or so payable in 2019 and 2020.

Greece is eager to update its fleet so that it attains interoperability with F-35 jets, which Turkey is already starting to acquire.


http://www.ekathimer...on-euro-upgrade
 

2018-04-02

The fast-tracking of procedures to implement a 1-billion-euro defense program was agreed on Monday during a meeting of the Parliaments Arms Committee. The decision was taken after a confidential briefing of the committee regarding the immediate needs of the countrys land, naval and air forces.

The discussions were attended by Defense Minister Panos Kammenos, the chief of Hellenic Armed Forces General Staff (GEETHA), Admiral Evangelos Apostolakis, and the heads of the General Army Command (GES), the Air Force General Staff (GEA) and the Hellenic Navy (GEN).

Among the significant priorities for Greeces air force is the upgrade by the US of 85 of its F-16 fighter jets. The government is scrambling to finalize the deal by April 30 so the cost will not exceed the 1.1-billion-euro ceiling set by the government. Another top priority for the air force is the the maintenance of its fleet of French-made Mirage-200s jets. The navys priorities include, among others, the immediate upgrade of its fleet of MEKO frigates.

The move to upgrade the countrys armed forces comes amid renewed tension with Turkey which flared at the weekend after leading politicians in the neighboring country again challenged Greeces sovereignty in the Aegean, where air space violations have spiked in recent months.

Meanwhile, deteriorating Greek-Turkish relations and the hardening of Athenss stance is expected to dominate Tuesdays cabinet meeting chaired by Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras.

The PMs office on Sunday described Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan as a sultan who makes promises on behalf of the countrys justice system as opposed to Greece which has a prime minister who respects the rule of law.

In remarks earlier on Sunday, Erdogan had linked the fate of the two Greek soldiers who are being held in Turkey with that of the eight Turkish servicemen who fled to Greece in 2016 after the coup attempt and which Ankara wants extradited. He also slammed Tsipras for allegedly going back on his promise to extradite the servicemen.

Government spokesman Dimitris Tzanakopoulos said on Monday that Turkey is using the two soldiers, who crossed the border early last month during a routine patrol, for political reasons. He said that the fact they have been held without charge for more than a month is is beginning to go beyond the limits.


The price has dropped quite a bit from the rumored 1.5 billion dollars, no doubt by the wish of the US to maintain balance in the region without having to take a side. It still doesn't make me feel any better though, as in case of a Turkish attack I don't expect any help to come from NATO.
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#20 a77

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Posted 06 April 2018 - 0908 AM

 

 

 

2.4 blliion USD? Greece? So who is going to really be paying for that?

 

 

Germany.... it obviously ther fault, they did lend money to Greece, and hence Greece was tricked into buy stuff then do not desperate need....so its right that Germany pay the bill....

 

Seriously, I am furious on the Greece goverment lack of budget disiplin... if they have a surplus... pay of the high interest loans or lower the tax to stimulate the economy so Greece are not the sick man of Europe.


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