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#41 nitflegal

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Posted 23 May 2007 - 1317 PM

Bullshit. Are you talking about some other country?

Geek Squad here at Best Buy has a two week waiting list to assist customers in transferring files from their old computer to the new one they just bought from Best Buy. It only costs $100. Pure fucking laziness or stupidity.


Actually, I think a lot of it is the same reason person hire handymen or plumbers. How often does the average person transfer from one HD to another? If they screw up something due to inexperience they lose the whole kit and kaboodle. Think about it; you've spent many hours updating Quicken, sorting your digital photos and home movies, each kid has their school reports in their folder, etc. You've got a printed out how-to from the internet and you're going to need to buy $20-30 worth of cables anyway. For most, it's simply not worth the risk or the trouble.

The average person, even those who are smart, wants the computer to come out of the box and walk them through the setup. The computer is a tool or appliance, not an interest. You could spend hours educating yourself and tinkering or you could give Best Buy an extra $100 and just bring the thing in for them to fix or upgrade for the next two years.

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#42 Guest_aevans_*

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Posted 23 May 2007 - 1323 PM

Bullshit. Are you talking about some other country?

Geek Squad here at Best Buy has a two week waiting list to assist customers in transferring files from their old computer to the new one they just bought from Best Buy. It only costs $100. Pure fucking laziness or stupidity.


Does the average doctor or businessman try to fix his own car -- even something simple like an oil change or brake service -- or does he hire it done? Is that "lazy", or is it just that they value their time in such a way that they'd rather pay to have it done rather than working on the car for a couple of hours on Saturday morning? (Not to mention that having somebody who presumably knows how to do it is usually smarter and less expensive in the long run than doing it yourself.)

Computers are no different -- they're just appliances to a lot of people, and you pay to have the appliance service guy do it, rather than do it yourself. In my experience, for every truly stupid or lazy computer user, there are ten DIYers who are nothing but arrogant, self-important time and money wasters.
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#43 Ivanhoe

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Posted 23 May 2007 - 1720 PM

Predicted for over a decade now, has never come to pass, nor is it likely to. My college CS department was heavily Linux flavored, and I still think Linux is a joke as an end user OS, no matter what kind of GUI sugar you put on top of it. It's just too technically oriented, and the so-called Open Source community is too arrogant and insular to ever invest the time and resources that either Apple or MS has to create a GUI that covers all of the bases that the average user needs covered.


I generally agree with your assessment of Linux on the desktop for general users, though of course its going to stay strong in the developer and science/engineering communities. But there seems to be a perceptible sea change in the Linux community, or perhaps a fork. There is a growing camp of enthusiasts bent on making Linux easier, in opposition to the elitist crowd. Its certainly not inevitable, but I think its entirely possible that the user friendly Linux crowd will get to the point where they just have to replace X, and after the civil war is over and the horses burned I think there will be real progress made. Now whether they will catch up to MS and Apple, who knows. My feeling is that a lot of professed faithful, when faced with the schism, will find themselves siding with the New Testament apostles. Can't think of any more metaphors to throw in the stew.

And if the GUI wrapping Linux just provides basic apps and a good browser, then webbed apps can provide all the needed functionality without requiring high school dropouts to wrestle with Excel macros.

I will agree that a lot of databased applications will be delivered by web browser technology in the future -- there are just too many good business reasons not to. But that is not the same thing as saying that those browsers will be running in a Linux environment. Standard productivity apps require too much interactivity to ever be viable over the network, no matter what some guru may have whispered in your ear about application servers. And as long as productivity remains local, the OS is going to have to be keyed to the average hourly clerical employee, not to what some IT geek thinks is the perfect Linux setup for accessing the company intranet.


My theory, though, is that the majority of users in the work environment need only extremely limited productivity apps (i.e. MS-Office). Sure, white collar people doing real IP work need those things, but the vast majority of businesses have people who just use PCs for e-mail, diddling with the accounting/inventory program, calendaring, and POS operations. The average salesdroid, paper pusher, or line supervisor doesn't need animated slide transitions or any of that crap. I figure the Office user of 2015 is going to be the archetypical power user, maybe 20% or less of the total desktop population. Rolling out Office to the bottom half of the bell curve is not going to improve productivity I don't think.

Now, I don't believe the distant application server concept is particularly good either. Every hiccup in DNS service could dump the session into the bit bucket. The rational solution, methinks, is a return to the minicomputer concept, more or less. Mostly thin clients connected to a departmental server, with loaded PCs given to those who really need them. Seems to me that admin can still be contracted out, dunno about Win2k3 but Linux/Unix one can do most of what needs doing thru the firewall using slogin (yes, I realize tunneled X sessions suck, but Real Men™ use the CLI anyway...).
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#44 APF

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Posted 24 May 2007 - 0136 AM

..."extremely limited productivity" apps (i.e. MS-Office)...


:lol: second that. If I'd been given refunds for the time spend on figuring out *why* word chose to reformat/replace something the way it did (and which differed significantly from the way I, the imbecilic user, happened to want it) I could've lived from the income.

Having said that, IMHO the linux community lacks some sort of discussion about the goal they want to achive. Just now the copies (sorry about the word) of the (in)famous MS apps look like a 'I've go a longer one' (read featuritis) contest: 'MS got double underlines - bah! Us got double underlines AND double colourchanges at letter level, OUR text style box needs at least an 19' screen to be displayed properly, now counter THAT!' I whish someone would write a more streamlined word processor - or claris (now apple) works wouldn't be discontinued, preferably with a working spreadsheet :)

Or am I the only one who basically wants/has to type text, maybe some italics or bold letters, subscript, superscript - but thats it. I can do really well without light red letters on a white screen (or dark red ones on a black screen), rainbow colours changing with time seem somehow gettting lost in the printing process and I'm really reluctant about using a word processor for designing webpages.

Sigh, greetings!

Edited by APF, 24 May 2007 - 0137 AM.

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#45 Guest_aevans_*

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Posted 24 May 2007 - 0934 AM

I generally agree with your assessment of Linux on the desktop for general users, though of course its going to stay strong in the developer and science/engineering communities. But there seems to be a perceptible sea change in the Linux community, or perhaps a fork. There is a growing camp of enthusiasts bent on making Linux easier, in opposition to the elitist crowd. Its certainly not inevitable, but I think its entirely possible that the user friendly Linux crowd will get to the point where they just have to replace X, and after the civil war is over and the horses burned I think there will be real progress made. Now whether they will catch up to MS and Apple, who knows. My feeling is that a lot of professed faithful, when faced with the schism, will find themselves siding with the New Testament apostles. Can't think of any more metaphors to throw in the stew.


Sounds like a lot of wishful thinking to me. In fact it sounds like the same wishful thinking that has surrounded Linux sine the turn of the century. "This time, they'll really get it right." Uh-huh...and the check's in the mail, I won't cu...

And if the GUI wrapping Linux just provides basic apps and a good browser, then webbed apps can provide all the needed functionality without requiring high school dropouts to wrestle with Excel macros.

My theory, though, is that the majority of users in the work environment need only extremely limited productivity apps (i.e. MS-Office). Sure, white collar people doing real IP work need those things, but the vast majority of businesses have people who just use PCs for e-mail, diddling with the accounting/inventory program, calendaring, and POS operations. The average salesdroid, paper pusher, or line supervisor doesn't need animated slide transitions or any of that crap. I figure the Office user of 2015 is going to be the archetypical power user, maybe 20% or less of the total desktop population. Rolling out Office to the bottom half of the bell curve is not going to improve productivity I don't think.

Now, I don't believe the distant application server concept is particularly good either. Every hiccup in DNS service could dump the session into the bit bucket. The rational solution, methinks, is a return to the minicomputer concept, more or less. Mostly thin clients connected to a departmental server, with loaded PCs given to those who really need them. Seems to me that admin can still be contracted out, dunno about Win2k3 but Linux/Unix one can do most of what needs doing thru the firewall using slogin (yes, I realize tunneled X sessions suck, but Real Men™ use the CLI anyway...).


All of this is way too corporate centered. Most people work in small businesses where one, or two, or a few desktops are the norm. People don't do narrowly focussed drone jobs, they do a little bit of everything. Every workstation needs a word processor and spreadsheet at a minimum, and generally several industry-specific apps as well. Your department server model simply doesn't accomodate that market. And a lot of the strictly data entry jobs are being automated out of existence with improved B2B and B2C data communications. I think it much more likely that most people in the future with a computer workstation will be doing more than just data entry or retrieval.
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#46 Ivanhoe

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Posted 24 May 2007 - 2218 PM

Sounds like a lot of wishful thinking to me. In fact it sounds like the same wishful thinking that has surrounded Linux sine the turn of the century. "This time, they'll really get it right." Uh-huh...and the check's in the mail, I won't cu...
All of this is way too corporate centered. Most people work in small businesses where one, or two, or a few desktops are the norm. People don't do narrowly focussed drone jobs, they do a little bit of everything. Every workstation needs a word processor and spreadsheet at a minimum, and generally several industry-specific apps as well. Your department server model simply doesn't accomodate that market. And a lot of the strictly data entry jobs are being automated out of existence with improved B2B and B2C data communications. I think it much more likely that most people in the future with a computer workstation will be doing more than just data entry or retrieval.


Folks working at POS stations, stockrooms, etc have no need for Word or Excel. In fact, one of the scenarios I have in mind for the departmental server is not the corporate environment but Bubba's Garage (almost literally; the garage where I take my Camaro is owned by a feller named Bubba). Their office technology consists of a phone and an electromechanical cash register. No answering machine. A place like that could certainly use a PC at the POS, a couple of thin clients out in the shop so the mechanics can read DVD manuals, order parts, and schedule time. A fencing contractor I do a little business with has PCs but they're maintly still running SneakerNet; along with a POS connected to an accounting program, they need web access for e-mail and parts ordering, and they need timekeeping for their hourlies. They might need one general workstation with Word and Excel for doing written estimates. My general practitioner finally computerized a bit, they have PCs in some of their exam rooms now, networked to a records server. Again, no need for Word or Excel, except for one or two stations in the front office. Their records software is 95% of their computing, it appears to be C/S but could easily be a web app.

In fact, given HIPAA, the health care community would be smart to move as much data as humanly possible off the desktop and onto servers.
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#47 Guest_aevans_*

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Posted 24 May 2007 - 2235 PM

Folks working at POS stations, stockrooms, etc have no need for Word or Excel. In fact, one of the scenarios I have in mind for the departmental server is not the corporate environment but Bubba's Garage (almost literally; the garage where I take my Camaro is owned by a feller named Bubba). Their office technology consists of a phone and an electromechanical cash register. No answering machine. A place like that could certainly use a PC at the POS, a couple of thin clients out in the shop so the mechanics can read DVD manuals, order parts, and schedule time. A fencing contractor I do a little business with has PCs but they're maintly still running SneakerNet; along with a POS connected to an accounting program, they need web access for e-mail and parts ordering, and they need timekeeping for their hourlies. They might need one general workstation with Word and Excel for doing written estimates. My general practitioner finally computerized a bit, they have PCs in some of their exam rooms now, networked to a records server. Again, no need for Word or Excel, except for one or two stations in the front office. Their records software is 95% of their computing, it appears to be C/S but could easily be a web app.

In fact, given HIPAA, the health care community would be smart to move as much data as humanly possible off the desktop and onto servers.


Ohhh...I see where your going. Thing is, hardware is so cheap, and, properly configured, Windows is such a simple and reliable general purpose OS (yes, I said that, and all religious convictions aside, it's generally true), that the Windows PC dominates many of these applications. Much of POS, almost all of the small to medium practice medical/dental scheduling/records/billing, and most of other industries' specialty software is targetted at Windows, without very many (if any) development organizations interested in developing for or porting to whatever-X. Even in situations where you want cheap database servers, applications have plugins that allow the data to be offloaded onto linux boxes running MySQL or PostgreSQL, with the apps still running as Windows forms apps or web apps using IE as the client. (I know for a fact, because it's what I do every day, that web developers prefer targetting IE when they can, because the JavaScript and CSS implementations are more reliable at runtime, which is important if you offload a lot of your presentation layer maintenance and data entry validation on the client.)

Edited by aevans, 24 May 2007 - 2245 PM.

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#48 Stevely

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Posted 30 May 2007 - 2330 PM

Folks working at POS stations, stockrooms, etc have no need for Word or Excel. In fact, one of the scenarios I have in mind for the departmental server is not the corporate environment but Bubba's Garage (almost literally; the garage where I take my Camaro is owned by a feller named Bubba).


If by Bubba you mean McPherson's Garage in Poquoson - well, that Bubba is the bee's knees and he runs the best garage in Tidewater. Our family take our cars to him, though I haven't been able to with my last two... it's getting harder for shops like his to do repair and maintenance on the newest vehicles. Pity, haven't found a dealership yet that wasn't out to rob me.
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#49 Ivanhoe

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Posted 31 May 2007 - 0933 AM

If by Bubba you mean McPherson's Garage in Poquoson - well, that Bubba is the bee's knees and he runs the best garage in Tidewater. Our family take our cars to him, though I haven't been able to with my last two... it's getting harder for shops like his to do repair and maintenance on the newest vehicles. Pity, haven't found a dealership yet that wasn't out to rob me.


Bingo. Depending on what you need done, appts can take from a week to two weeks. In the last year he has gotten a little better, maybe he's hired more guys?

When I replaced my water pump a couple of years ago, I took it to McPherson's to get the cooling system pressure checked. Not only did they do a pressure check, they put the car up on the lift with the engine running and watched for leaks. All for ten bucks. Imagine asking a car dealership to do that.
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#50 m1a1mg

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Posted 16 July 2007 - 2132 PM

What's the latest on Vista? I'm thinking of buying a new machine and have the option the get Vista or XP, but the XP machine is less configurable.
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#51 Ivanhoe

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Posted 22 July 2007 - 0927 AM

What's the latest on Vista? I'm thinking of buying a new machine and have the option the get Vista or XP, but the XP machine is less configurable.


Rumors have Vista SP1 coming out soon. I'd suggest going with XP unless you have 1st person hands-on experience with the particular machine in question running Vista. It would really suck to shell out for a new computer and have the GUI be molasses-ware.

Also rumors floating around about the follow-on to Vista, currently codenamed "7" in Gatesburg. Notional release date for 7 has been mentioned as 2010, which if true would have Vista the Windows Me of the 21st century.
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#52 Geoff Winnington-Ball

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Posted 22 July 2007 - 0942 AM

When I was away May/June I spent some time with another Canuck who sold M/S an application he had developed, and had to spend a year down there with them; he said that whole operation was the scariest thing he's ever seen, the geek equivalent of George Orwell's "Animal Farm"... and he emphasized DON'T get Winders Vista for a long while yet! Apparently it's the equivalent, if not worse than the very first iteration of Winders 95. A veritable bug farm... :blink:
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#53 JCT

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Posted 23 July 2007 - 1035 AM

What's the latest on Vista? I'm thinking of buying a new machine and have the option the get Vista or XP, but the XP machine is less configurable.


I had Vista come with a new computer. None of my old software, AntiVirus, firewall, pdf converter, CD burner, DVD player, etc would work with Vista so do a check of the software that you use the most. While Vista will do some of the tasks of the previous software, it doesn't do it WELL. I wasn't willing to shell out a ton more money for replacement software as most of the software vendors wanted money for upgrades and were not providing patches. I ended up dumping Vista and loading XP on the machine. Vista did have some cool features, but I won't put it back on the new computer for awhile.
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#54 Colin

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Posted 23 July 2007 - 1143 AM

I just bought a computer with this cpu

Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600 2.4Ghz 8MB 1066FSB Quad Core

Was told that XP will not run it properly and I was doomed to use vista, so pray for me......
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#55 JCT

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Posted 23 July 2007 - 1718 PM

I just bought a computer with this cpu

Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600 2.4Ghz 8MB 1066FSB Quad Core

Was told that XP will not run it properly and I was doomed to use vista, so pray for me......


That does not sound right. At the moment, XP should work just as well as Vista on any x86-based computer. It is easier to get XP drivers for gear as Vista drivers remain a hit or miss at this time.
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#56 nitflegal

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Posted 24 July 2007 - 1148 AM

I have Vista on my PC and it truly sucks. I have been amazed how unstable it makes applications like IE and Firefox, after 12 hours or so you have a good chance of the internet browser locking up, first by right click not working and then having the mouse control fail.

It's a cool looking program full of features that I don't need that sucks my computer dry. I'm really tempted to just wipe and restart with XP, which I thought was wonderful.

Matt
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#57 Allan Wotherspoon

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Posted 24 July 2007 - 1924 PM

That does not sound right. At the moment, XP should work just as well as Vista on any x86-based computer. It is easier to get XP drivers for gear as Vista drivers remain a hit or miss at this time.


He has a quad core processor. IIRC, XP doesn't take advantage of the quad core features. That being said, I assume you could run XP, you just wouldn't get the full advantage of your quad core processor.
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#58 Colin

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Posted 25 July 2007 - 0039 AM

Actually I am "about to have a quad core computer", hope to pick it up this Friday.
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#59 Colin

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Posted 27 July 2007 - 2339 PM

Finally I am back on the net.

First the new computer would not "see" the wireless video card, search for it, update hardware etc. uninstall, again and again, take card in,out,in,out all will installing software (gee you think MS would have drivers for D-link wireless cards eh?)

Tried networking the computers over, after 3 hrs, and a router, they "see" each other but won't let me transfer files, arrgh!!

Luckily I have a 2g flash drive.

I think I need more beer!
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#60 Colin

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Posted 04 August 2007 - 2156 PM

It would seem that the newest version of Google Earth is not very stable in Vista, it keeps freezing up on me, with 4gigs of RAM I don't think that is the problem.
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