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M-47/ M-48


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#141 bojan

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Posted 10 October 2019 - 1830 PM

Not really. Those would require yearly reports of active unit inventories + number of tanks available, and considering how much units were disbanded and reformed during just the major reorganizations (major reorganizations were 1954, 1958, 1964, 1969, 1975, 1988 and 1991) that would epic task, even if all documentation survived - and it did not. Some archives were lost in the breakup of Yugoslavia, particularly in Bosnia, some in 1999. bombing of the Army HQ building.


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#142 Ken Estes

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 0330 AM

What a ghastly situation for a historical assessment. Well done, sir.


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#143 bojan

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 0552 AM

Ghastly is a great description, with documentation being either misfiled, lost of still not declassified.

Related to M47/48, timeline of T300/M431 HEAT ammo acquisition in Yugoslavia:

- 1956, ~3200 T300 delivered by plane from the US (that's 10 rounds per tank...)

- 1964. ~6000 purchased from the unknown country in Europe (I suspect Germany)

- 1969. ~6000 or 8000 acquired from "Africa"* - in fact 99% chance of it being Israel

- 1971. - ~8000 from "Europe"* (again, possibly Germany)

- 1977. - ~6000 from "Asia"* - Vietnam most probably

 

Total 3200 T300 + ~34000 M431 acquired.

 

*Thing is, even in the official acquisition form, if a country of origin/destination was considered "sensitive" only continent was given (and "Africa" was used for deals with Israel, since it went via Ethiopia).


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#144 Chris Werb

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Posted 17 October 2019 - 1338 PM

The African country could (1% chance) have been Ethiopia, which had M47s.


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#145 RETAC21

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Posted 17 October 2019 - 1350 PM

Or Somalia


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#146 bojan

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Posted 17 October 2019 - 1433 PM

The African country could (1% chance) have been Ethiopia, which had M47s.

I really doubt they have sold amy ammo, especially something as vital as HEAT (w/o HEAT 90mm was pretty hopeless frontally vs T-54/55/62s).

Also,when Ethiopia was buying 90mm HE from Yugoslavia in early '70s (IIRC before fall of Selassie) destination country was stated as "Ethiopia", so there was obviously no problem with any deal with Ethiopia.


Edited by bojan, 17 October 2019 - 1433 PM.

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#147 Chris Werb

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Posted 17 October 2019 - 1510 PM

Or Somalia

 

I think the Somalis got their later than that timeframe, via Saudi.


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#148 Nikolas93TS

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Posted 17 October 2019 - 1607 PM

Somalia got around 100 M47s from Italy in late 1980s.
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#149 Panzermann

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Posted Yesterday, 01:47 AM

1971. - ~8000 from "Europe"* (again, possibly Germany)

​

 

Could be, but Belgium, Italy, Spain etc also had M47 or used to have them. Same with M48 users. Still lots of 90 mm to go around in NATO back then.


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#150 bojan

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Posted Yesterday, 06:17 AM

1964. acquisition is 99% from Germany, since in the early '60s acquisition of the additional M47s from a Germany was considered, but given up since tanks were in the bad shape due the heavy use in training.

1971. Spain is no-go. That leaves Belgium, Germany and Italy.

Unless someone finds original import documents (that had to list real country of origin) we can not know for sure.


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#151 Nikolas93TS

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Posted Yesterday, 07:26 AM

Italian national planning study, (pianificazione nazionale) elaborated by Army General Staff (Stato Maggiore dell'Esercito), on mandate of Defence Staff (Stato Maggiore della Difesa) in 1970, imply that the possibility of border skirmish with Yugoslavia was always held in high priority by Italian Army (which is not surprising given the Trieste Crisis in 1953 and that this issue was finally settled only with the Treaty of Osimo in 1975). The planning study I mentioned specifically included the option of using the border dispute to counterattack and re-occupy Istria peninsula if political and military means would allow.

 

I guess Italians were not going to sell ammunition to the potential enemy. 

 

Belgium has withdrawn M-47 in 1969, albeit an undisclosed amount was kept in reserve for mobilization until the end of the Cold War. 


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