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alt-hist c&rsenal pre-WW1

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#581 Markus Becker

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Posted 03 June 2019 - 0821 AM

We knew that the Blish principle didn’t exist right away and looked at the rifle to find out how it manged to function anyway and discovered the bolt handle sort-of locked into the receiver like a black powder bolt action rifle. We put the camming surfaces into an extension of the barrel.

 

The Pedersen is part of military program and we aren’t going anywhere near that. The military demands perfection right away in any way. A commercial rifle isn’t subject to such extreme requirements, particularly not a semi automatic one. It just needs to be better than the competition, which consist of the Winchester 07 with it’s very heavy bolt and the Remington Model 8 with it’s complicated mechanics. Savage has looked at our test ‘device’ and thinks the idea of a rotating bolt delayed blowback action can be made into a working firearm.

 

Speaking of, doesn’t Arsenal have a 9mm Luger pistol with a large capacity magazine? That and our modernized Model 1907 pocket pistol would make a nice pair on the US market.


Edited by Markus Becker, 03 June 2019 - 0821 AM.

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#582 Markus Becker

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Posted 06 June 2019 - 1214 PM

Any suggestions for names for the M1914 rifle and the M1912/20/22(?) pistol? The 1921 series is marketed as the Minuteman Carbines, the modernized 1907 as the Liberator pistol.
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#583 Markus Becker

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Posted 07 June 2019 - 1411 PM


And now for a bit of machine carbine history from the distant future:


https://youtu.be/jNrAsnfI5-k

M1922 prototype built on M1913 reciever.
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#584 Simon Tan

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Posted 08 June 2019 - 0454 AM

The Model 1925 pistol is produced primarily for commercial sales to China. They are mostly select fire and can all mount a shoulder stock. It has had some success but users have complained about the large grip needed to accomodate the double stack magazine. Thinner wooden grip panels are not adequately robust so a suitable material is being sought.

I think the single stack Hahn might be a better fit for catalogue sales on price. The double stack magazines are expensive and we eliminate the select fire components.

Why dont we call the straight pull the Hunter/Jaeger since it is targeted at the hunting market? What do Americans think when they see Tankovia?
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#585 bojan

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Posted 08 June 2019 - 0617 AM

Steyr 1912 grips can be pretty thin due the way they are mounted on the frame. They could be made about 50% thinner w/o problems. Or make they from aluminium or alloy

5:00:


Edited by bojan, 08 June 2019 - 0621 AM.

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#586 Markus Becker

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Posted 08 June 2019 - 0715 AM

I don’t expect the large grips of the M1925 pistol to be a problem. Americans have larger hands than the Chinese. Deeper pockets too, so the price of the double stack magazine is going to be much less of an issue. The flimsy grip panels are and must be fixed before we offer the gun. We have just recovered from the reputation of making “cheap” guns. Offering a new gun that has parts breaking is the last thing we need. The select fire trigger is another one. That’s only attracts the sort of customers I’d rather not sell any gun at all.

 

So, single stack Hahn’s right away, double stacks at a later date.

 

Names? Nothing German. The anti German sentiment is not as strong as it used to be but let’s not give ammunition to Auto Ordnance’s negative PR campaign.  A Hahn is a rooster in English but is that a good name for a handgun? Arsenal Rooster? Probably not. The double stack has a high capacity magazine. Arsenal High Capacity or High Power?

 

Something hunting themed for the rifle fits well. We need to dig into American history for a suitable catchy name.


Edited by Markus Becker, 08 June 2019 - 0716 AM.

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#587 Panzermann

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Posted 08 June 2019 - 1430 PM

I don’t expect the large grips of the M1925 pistol to be a problem. Americans have larger hands than the Chinese. Deeper pockets too, so the price of the double stack magazine is going to be much less of an issue. The flimsy grip panels are and must be fixed before we offer the gun. We have just recovered from the reputation of making “cheap” guns. Offering a new gun that has parts breaking is the last thing we need. The select fire trigger is another one. That’s only attracts the sort of customers I’d rather not sell any gun at all.

 

So, single stack Hahn’s right away, double stacks at a later date.

 

Names? Nothing German. The anti German sentiment is not as strong as it used to be but let’s not give ammunition to Auto Ordnance’s negative PR campaign.  A Hahn is a rooster in English but is that a good name for a handgun? Arsenal Rooster? Probably not. The double stack has a high capacity magazine. Arsenal High Capacity or High Power?

 

Something hunting themed for the rifle fits well. We need to dig into American history for a suitable catchy name.

 

Uhm the Steyr M1912 is called Steyr-Hahn, because it has a hammer (Hahn in German). so "arsenal hammer" could be a name. Or we derive it from the ammunition. Arsenal 919, Arsenal 900


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#588 Markus Becker

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Posted 08 June 2019 - 1445 PM

"Hammer" ... That sounds good, really good.
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#589 Simon Tan

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Posted 09 June 2019 - 1902 PM

Not in the 1920s and 30s. We can't do the steyr hahn panels because we are not using an internal magazine where the frame is also the magazine body.

 

Feed geometry of a M1920/22 is different from the Steyr M1912 simply because we do not have to be able to thumb in the stripper of ammo. The magazine is probably going to be rather similar to the Colt 1911 but with 8 round capacity. For the US market we have modified the M1922 to have a US style push-button magazine release in lieu of the heel catch of our own guns. The slide is also new production rather than excess M1912 slides and are now have a dovetail for a rear sight as well as a modified gripping serrations. The 'ears' of the Hahn are retained as they allow for easy manipulation compared to a 'slick' slide like Colt 1911.

 

A pair of M1913 machine carbines have been modified to accept the double stack Hahn magazines. This was done to allow export customers to share magazines between machine carbine and pistol.


Edited by Simon Tan, 09 June 2019 - 2243 PM.

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#590 Simon Tan

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 2358 PM

I assume our gun laws are quite liberal given that we have rifles at home for reservists.
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#591 Markus Becker

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Posted 13 June 2019 - 0432 AM

See this proposal:

 

http://www.tank-net....26#entry1423362

 

 

With the addition that a license is also required to carry a handgun.


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#592 Markus Becker

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Posted 14 June 2019 - 1259 PM

Some more firearms news:

 

The machine carbine family has a new member. It’s a M1922 in caliber .22 lr. The carbine has a tubular receiver made from a piece of pipe. It is also smaller and no longer allows the conversion from 9mm but that caliber is still selling poorly. The increased sales on the US market are overwhelmingly M1922’s in caliber .22 because that is both cheap and can be used for hunting. Not sure how we call the gun. So joker suggested ‘Miniman’.

 

The Auto Ordnance Corporation looks like it is about to go under. Rumors in the industry indicate they are going to file for bankruptcy within the next quarter unless a miracle happens.


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#593 Markus Becker

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Posted 21 June 2019 - 0927 AM

Some article from the latest edition of the "Firearms and Ammunition" magazine.

 

 

Auto Ordanace saved? General Thompson back!

 

In a surprising turn of events the impending bankruptcy of the Auto Ordnance Cooperation is said to been avoided at the last moment when a group of foreign investors lead by General John Thompson took back control of the company. Further details are not known at this point. 

 

 

Minuteman followed by Liberator

 

Lokomotiv Tankov’s “new” pocket pistol can best be described as a heavily modernized Savage Model 1917. It retains the direct blow back action and the double stack magazines for nine rounds of .380 ACP or ten .32 ACP. The main differences are the hammer fired, singe and double action trigger and the trigger safety that blocks the firing pin unless the trigger is pulled. This makes the gun perfectly save to carry uncocked with a round in the chamber and the manual safety off.


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#594 Markus Becker

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Posted 22 June 2019 - 0654 AM

And we will have new machine carbines too. Proposed designations are M1932 and M1935.

 

Just two variants. Both are direct blow back guns firing from a closed bolt and are loaded with detachable box magazines. One is semi automatic only, the other is select fire. The select fire version comes with a Cutts Compensator. The stocks are new. They are the so called inline or straight-line type. Either fixed wooden or a side folding metal. The receivers are tubular and made from actual pipe. The placement of the magazine is still under discussion.

 

One side wants it on the top of the gun.

 

-it’s not in the way when you are prone.
-the magazine spring is supported by gravity and no longer working against it
-the ejection port is on the bottom. Gravity ensures that anything in there has a natural tendency to fall out of it. Not just casings but also dirt.

 

The other side is happy with the way things are. A  20 round magazine is not really in the way, but a top mounted one would block some of your vision.

 

I wonder how much additional effort it would be to have the magazine of the semi automatic carbine on the bottom and that of the select fire gun on top?


Edited by Markus Becker, 22 June 2019 - 0654 AM.

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#595 Simon Tan

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Posted 26 June 2019 - 0234 AM

How often do you shoot a gangster gun from prone? It is intended for assaults and other mobile actions. The Italian OVP 18 has a top fed magazine since it is half a Villar Perosa. We probably have one in the Arsenal reference library. 

 


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#596 Markus Becker

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Posted 26 June 2019 - 0645 AM

The M1922 is a respectable civillian self defence carbine and the M1925 an equally respectable military weapon. There is no connection to anything or anyone unlawful. 

 

Anyways, the motorized force is using the M1925 as an infantry weapon. They state that a top mounted mag is as good on the attack and better when on the defence. With a magazine that hold more than 20 rounds! Right now 20 is all right because full auto is something for experienced shooters, special situations and short ranges but if the various features to reduce recoil and muzzle climb work as intended, full auto will be more than a niche feature. 

 

 

BTW, could you please add the following to recievers of guns for export to the USA:

 

Manufactured for

 

Auto Ordnance Cooperation, Utica, NY

 

and add tka in lower case letters in front of the serial number. 


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#597 Simon Tan

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Posted 01 July 2019 - 0302 AM

Inertia bolt (Sjogren) handgun in our skunkworks.

 

 


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