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Main Gun Ammo - Revisited


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#1001 Jim Warford

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Posted 26 June 2019 - 2200 PM

Is the Svinets-2 an export round as well, or is it in Russian Army service? Is there a version that's not DU?


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#1002 Wiedzmin

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Posted 26 June 2019 - 2257 PM

Svinets2 - is not du, tungsten
Svinets1- du

As far as I know Svinets-2 has permission to export, but for use it you need to make little tweaks in autoloader + it's first "official public appearance", so maybe only after "army 2019" it will be available, if some one interested in such round

https://pp.userapi.c...q6k6QO6L1XY.jpg

https://pp.userapi.c...-w-UyqRS2Xc.jpg


BTW striking velocity of non penetration of 350mm plate for 3bm42 is 1326 m/s, for this test was used experimental 3bm42 with little heat charge in rear


Edited by Wiedzmin, 27 June 2019 - 0210 AM.

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#1003 Davin

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Posted 27 June 2019 - 0119 AM

Why Mango-M round doesn’t required modification of an auto-loader?
It looks similar in length with the Svinets-2 round.
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#1004 Wiedzmin

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Posted 27 June 2019 - 0204 AM

Why Mango-M round doesn’t required modification of an auto-loader?
It looks similar in length with the Svinets-2 round.

because industrial director of "Rostech" who said this, is most likely an incompetent manager, like most defense managers, we now have

 

penetration data that he gives also may be incorrect (it could be less, it could be more etc)

 

the other reason could be that person who repsonsible for creation of mango-m mock up could do it wrong(or maybe it's just my eyes, but here is the image where i scale-up Svinets to match up charge diameter with Mango-M)

 

or even simpler, distorting the perspective on a photo

 

jk4GGZW3zMg.jpg


Edited by Wiedzmin, 27 June 2019 - 0210 AM.

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#1005 Davin

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Posted 27 June 2019 - 0252 AM

Very helpful,thx Wiedzmin!
The new Mango-M inspires me this round,maybe some kind prototype of it.
298656_original.jpg

Edited by Davin, 27 June 2019 - 0322 AM.

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#1006 Wiedzmin

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Posted 05 July 2019 - 0138 AM

S4VFK4ogiik.jpgMUYDELt-rNg.jpg​

8Xndf0Sefek.jpg​

-rJBcmIfJA0.jpg​

 

presumably german 105mm APFSDS for 105mm smoothbore canon 


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#1007 Interlinked

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Posted 05 July 2019 - 0235 AM

Nice and fat.


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#1008 Stefan Kotsch

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Posted 05 July 2019 - 1327 PM

As far as I know Svinets-2 has permission to export, but for use it you need to make little tweaks in autoloader ...

Little tweaks in autoloader? What does this mean in reality?


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#1009 Wiedzmin

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Posted 05 July 2019 - 1614 PM

for T-80

you need modify existing hydropneumatic cleaning reservoir, lever arm, cab stiffeners(make cuts) and change the installation location of the upper lever

 

for T-72

 

modified cassette lifting mechanism,modified rotating conveyor, rotary conveyor drive with modified crankcase, variable receiving tray

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#1010 Harkonnen

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Posted 05 July 2019 - 1821 PM

 

Little tweaks in autoloader? What does this mean in reality?

 

 

It means a little tweaks to mechanical loader (T-64-80 style)

image015.jpg​

and a lot of redesign of autoloader of T-72-90.


Edited by Harkonnen, 05 July 2019 - 1821 PM.

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#1011 Stefan Kotsch

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Posted 06 July 2019 - 1041 AM

 

lot of redesign of autoloader of T-72-90

A lot of... ;) That was my thought also.


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#1012 Harkonnen

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Posted 06 July 2019 - 1228 PM

 

 

lot of redesign of autoloader of T-72-90

A lot of... ;) That was my thought also.

 

 

a5f10f4bb6be.jpg


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#1013 Stefan Kotsch

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Posted 06 July 2019 - 1324 PM

Yes, yes, that's what went through my mind. The effort with T-72 style loaders is not insignificant and the costs are not low.


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#1014 Jim Warford

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Posted 10 August 2019 - 2333 PM

Finally...some details regarding the BR-471B and BR-471D...

122mm_BR-471D_BR-471B_1.jpg

 

As I continue to search here and there for information regarding the use and effectiveness of Soviet 122mm ammo after WWII, it's become pretty clear that there is still some debate around the post-war usefulness of both the D-25 series tank main gun and the ammo it fired. Any analysis can't stray to far away from the fact that the Soviets liked the D-25 and were in no hurry to replace it (at least not immediately following the war). The gun's well-earned reputation during the war combined with its effectiveness against German heavy tanks and the always-there ability to deliver a very effective HE round when needed, kept the 122 close to the heart of Soviet Army leadership. Soviet articles have also confirmed the strong Soviet belief that non-penetrating hits from 122mm AP and even HE rounds could do enough damage to knock-out NATO medium and perhaps even heavy tanks. In that case...is a replacement even needed? On the other hand, at least one source I found said the decision to not replace the D-25 early on was based on the fact that no superior replacement was available...so. the veteran soldiered on.

 

What level of performance could be expected from the 122mm main gun and the ammo it fired against the NATO medium and heavy tanks of the 1950s and 1960s? Could this gun/ammo combination have done the job?      


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#1015 Rick

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Posted 11 August 2019 - 0526 AM

Thinking out loud, but when the war ended the Soviets have the best knowledge of Allied and Axis tanks. IMO, this knowledge allowed their 122mm tank gun to rest on its laurels for at least a few more years. Given the condition of the Soviet economy at this time that would make sense to me, rather than going through the expense of trying to modify/invent a better gun. Just my $0.02 worth from an ex-sailor. 


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#1016 Interlinked

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Posted 11 August 2019 - 0658 AM

They wanted to replace the D-25T with something more powerful when developing the T-10. They just didn't have an alternative that could fit in the turret, so it was kept in the form of the D-25TA and later, the D-25TS.


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#1017 EchoFiveMike

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Posted 13 August 2019 - 1954 PM

Interesting, I was involved with a controlled detonation of an IED that had a couple of BR-471D in it.  I was never able to find data on it, not on NGIC or anywhere else.  S/F....Ken M  


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#1018 Jim Warford

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Posted 15 August 2019 - 2129 PM

Interesting, I was involved with a controlled detonation of an IED that had a couple of BR-471D in it.  I was never able to find data on it, not on NGIC or anywhere else.  S/F....Ken M  

 

Ken; very interesting...can you provide some details? Where and when you encountered those rounds would be helpful...there isn't a whole lot out there regarding the BR-471D. 


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#1019 EchoFiveMike

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Posted 16 August 2019 - 0051 AM

Yeah, it was 2x 125mm HE-Frag and 1xBR-471D in multiple holes along MSR Temple(IIRC), SW of Biap, NW of Mahmudiyah, in Dec 2004'ish.  The road that ran E-W from Yusifiyah to Mahmudiyah, whatever it's called.  I recall it being remarkable because it was obviously an AP round, I had assumed a 130mm naval shell at the time, since there were some 130mm batteries that had been destroyed nearby during the initial invasion phase, and we found a number of 130mm shell.  But in retrospect, and with the picture, it was clearly BR-471D.  S/F.....Ken M 


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#1020 Chris Werb

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Posted 16 August 2019 - 2039 PM

Surely the BR-471D as a shot, would have been inert and would have added nothing to the IED?


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