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Why Are Not Marines "soldiers"?


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#1 Stefan Fredriksson

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Posted 27 July 2018 - 0040 AM

Have been thinking for this for a while, since afaik our nomenclature is that everyone in uniform is a "soldier", but then are divided into subsets based on their placement.

I can understand if a marine needs to be able to swim (longer than?) an army soldier, but what other requirements differentiate between being able to become a generic marine from a generic army soldier?

https://www.military...why-it-matters/
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#2 shep854

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Posted 27 July 2018 - 1127 AM

In a generic sense all military personnel could be considered soldiers. As with sailors and airmen, marines are distinguished by their role, as are engineers medics, etc. on a smaller scale. Distinguishing separate roles and forces is a tradition and morale practice. The Canadian services unification didnt work so well for this reason.

The USMC capitalizes the M for US Marines out of tradition and esprit

Edited by shep854, 27 July 2018 - 1129 AM.

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#3 Stefan Fredriksson

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Posted 27 July 2018 - 1422 PM

So physical requirements for infantrymen in the marines and the army are basically the same?
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#4 rmgill

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Posted 27 July 2018 - 1543 PM

I'm pretty sure the Corps has a higher bar for PT standards than the US Army.  Marines have a 3 mile run. Army has a 2 mile run.


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#5 shep854

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Posted 27 July 2018 - 1726 PM

Infantry requirements tend to be rather standard.  'Elite' units (marines, airborne, special operations) tend to use PT as a screening tool to manage numbers.  I once read that the length of Navy SEAL selection training was influenced by the need for bodies; they ran the classes until they were reduced to the number needed at that time.  The actual physical demands of the unique missions is a factor, but maintaining an 'elite' reputation may play a part in that reasoning.


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#6 FALightFighter

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Posted 27 July 2018 - 2021 PM

The physical requirements for each MOS in the Army are listed in DA Pam 611-21, MOS Smart Book. It is behind a CAC wall, but you might be able to find an old one or FOIA the information. It was changed significantly in the last 2-3 years; the Army put a lot of effort into quantifying MOS physical requirements as part of opening all specialties to women.

 

The physical requirements for USMC infantry specialties are listed in NACMC3500-44C. For MOS 0311, the physical tasks listed are:

- Assist in loading and unloading a tactical vehicle (clean and press a MK19 while wearing fighting load of 49-60 lbs)

- Ensure that you and the casualty are no longer under direct enemy fire (sprint 25m to simulated casualty of 205lbs and drag casualty back to start within 54 seconds)

- Cross a wall (cross a 56in high wall while wearing fighting load plus individual weapon)

- Conduct a forced march (20km within 5 hours, while carrying assault load, individual weapon and MOS equipment, I didn't see the weight listed)

- Perform individual movement techniques (300 m total movement on 75m lane, with 8 drops to the prone, and 100m of dodging around cones (25m of each 75m lane) within 3:56)

 

The current Army APFT is 3 events: pushups, situps and 2 mile run. The scale varies by age and gender, but not by MOS. The Army is introducing a new Army Combat Readiness Test, composed of 6 events: deadlift, standing power throw, T push up, sprint/drag/carry, leg tuck, and 2 mile run. The scoring standards are still being developed, but are supposed to vary by MOS (maybe on a tiered system of 3 or 4 different minimum scores), but not by age or gender. 

The current USMC fitness test is 3 events: pullups, crunches, and 3 mile run. The scale varies by age and gender, but not MOS. The USMC also has the CFT, which is a different test. I'm not sure how its scored.


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#7 Simon Tan

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Posted 27 July 2018 - 2254 PM

Marines are sailors.


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#8 Ivanhoe

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Posted 27 July 2018 - 2333 PM

I recall a quotation along the lines of "Soldiers loot, sailors take prize."


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#9 Chris Werb

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Posted 28 July 2018 - 1152 AM

Marines are sailors.


And sometimes literally. Until comparatively recently you had Marines manning some of the guns on US Navy ships. IsTR Tony Evans was on the crew of one of the two 5"/38 mounts on the USS Long Beach.
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#10 Rick

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Posted 28 July 2018 - 1556 PM

Was a corpsman(medic) with the Marines from 1980 - 82. The "docs" had a saying that the Marines already had their "few, good men" Navy Corpsmen! We had to maintain the same PT requirements as the Marines, but not the same uniform or grooming requirements.

 

The "few, good men" was from a Marine recruiting advertisement back in the day.


Edited by Rick, 28 July 2018 - 1558 PM.

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#11 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 29 July 2018 - 0211 AM

 

Marines are sailors.


And sometimes literally. Until comparatively recently you had Marines manning some of the guns on US Navy ships. IsTR Tony Evans was on the crew of one of the two 5"/38 mounts on the USS Long Beach.

 

 

IIRC, Marines manned some of the guns on RN warships. They certainly manned what were planned to be immobile guns on RN landing crafts, which eventually became the Royal Marines Armoured Support Group manning Centaurs.


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#12 Chris Werb

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Posted 29 July 2018 - 0839 AM

 

 

Marines are sailors.


And sometimes literally. Until comparatively recently you had Marines manning some of the guns on US Navy ships. IsTR Tony Evans was on the crew of one of the two 5"/38 mounts on the USS Long Beach.

 

 

IIRC, Marines manned some of the guns on RN warships. They certainly manned what were planned to be immobile guns on RN landing crafts, which eventually became the Royal Marines Armoured Support Group manning Centaurs.

 

 

Up to WW1 they manned coast guns directly defending naval bases (in WW1 so did the Army, at least in Orkney). That responsibility passed to the Army after WW1. They reinherited it to a small extent in WW2 with what were called Mobile Naval Base Defence Organisations intended to defend captured naval bases abroad - it's a fascinating Google search if you have the time.


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