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SU-57 T-50 Russia Sukhoi flying pancake India

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#61 lastdingo

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Posted 07 February 2018 - 1548 PM

Well, that's another scenario:

LO fighters flying along old fighters and picking the kills like seasoned aces did among rookies during WW2.

That way of fighting would surely yield very high kill ratios, but at the expense of the cannon fodder, the "low end" peasants in the mix.

 

It's doubtful that this would work particularly well against LO adversaries, of course.


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#62 Josh

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Posted 07 February 2018 - 1656 PM

In the article I read, the F-22s were kept aloft because they had longer detection ranges and could pass off their info to other aircraft. They still generally took the lead, except when they were Winchester. At that point they often stayed aloft to provide guidance and deconflict 4th gen fighters that were still armed. Which I had the article; it was something in Aviation Leak.
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#63 lastdingo

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Posted 07 February 2018 - 1734 PM

That superior range doesn't really matter against LO adversaries, though. They would come fairly close without being detected by F-22 - but close enough for a no escape shot against at 3rd rate fighters.

Either that or the 3rd gen fighters stay back so far that they're not of much use as missile lobbers.


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#64 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 08 February 2018 - 0856 AM

The F22 was arguably designed for a role it no longer has. The idea at the end of the Cold War when they did the design brief on it, was that it would hang out over Warsaw Pact airfields, and Seal cub anything that tried to take of. Think of it as an airmobile Sam battery parked at the end of each runway and you pretty much have it.

The problem is, even though the Russians today have far fewer airfields than they did, there is significantly fewer F22's than they intended to buy. So its going to be very difficult indeed to find enough (deployed over 2 oceans mind you) to create an air dominance effect. So I can see why they are trying to use them as force multipliers for the 3rd gen fighters. The interesting thing is what happens when F35 enters service, because from what little ive read on the subject, there may be some issues with getting F35's and F22's to talk to each other. There was some clever discussion of creating flying information bridges, which would be able to take information from F22 and F35 and exchange with both. Though if that is true (and if Im not massively misunderstanding the problem) that sounds like a very expensive hammer to crack a nut.

Edited by Stuart Galbraith, 08 February 2018 - 0856 AM.

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#65 Josh

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Posted 08 February 2018 - 0919 AM

There are also issues with F-35/F-22 talking to legacy fighters. The F-35 lacks link16. For the USN I think this the bridge is the E-2D, which apparently can talk to everyone. For the USAF a system that handles this is the TALON pod, which takes the place of a centerline drop tank on the F-15 and doubles as an IRST in addition to being a cross platform datalink.
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#66 Josh

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Posted 08 February 2018 - 0923 AM

That superior range doesn't really matter against LO adversaries, though. They would come fairly close without being detected by F-22 - but close enough for a no escape shot against at 3rd rate fighters.
Either that or the 3rd gen fighters stay back so far that they're not of much use as missile lobbers.


LO fighters are generally going to cause a lot of cassualties to non LO fighters, unless the latter can be datalinked to a system that gives them warning and intercept. For the USN that is E-2D. I don't know what the USAF's plan is. But first someone has to put an LO fighter in service. Currently the only candidate is J-20, so perhaps USAF can deploy something. Though really China is more of a Navy problem.
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#67 GARGEAN

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Posted 08 February 2018 - 1007 AM

The F22 was arguably designed for a role it no longer has. The idea at the end of the Cold War when they did the design brief on it, was that it would hang out over Warsaw Pact airfields, and Seal cub anything that tried to take of. Think of it as an airmobile Sam battery parked at the end of each runway and you pretty much have it.

The problem is, even though the Russians today have far fewer airfields than they did, there is significantly fewer F22's than they intended to buy. So its going to be very difficult indeed to find enough (deployed over 2 oceans mind you) to create an air dominance effect. So I can see why they are trying to use them as force multipliers for the 3rd gen fighters. The interesting thing is what happens when F35 enters service, because from what little ive read on the subject, there may be some issues with getting F35's and F22's to talk to each other. There was some clever discussion of creating flying information bridges, which would be able to take information from F22 and F35 and exchange with both. Though if that is true (and if Im not massively misunderstanding the problem) that sounds like a very expensive hammer to crack a nut.

4th gen, not 3rd. You're not chinese I assume. And datalinks are long used and not so difficult thing to implement (with air-air since MiG-31 arrival and ground-air for much longer for SU). It's F-22 that somehow appetared with pretty rudimental capabilities in that regard.
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#68 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 08 February 2018 - 1157 AM

There are also issues with F-35/F-22 talking to legacy fighters. The F-35 lacks link16. For the USN I think this the bridge is the E-2D, which apparently can talk to everyone. For the USAF a system that handles this is the TALON pod, which takes the place of a centerline drop tank on the F-15 and doubles as an IRST in addition to being a cross platform datalink.

 

 

That was it, I know I heard something about that somewhere. :)


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#69 Blunt Eversmoke

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Posted 08 February 2018 - 1301 PM

 

 

The US has defense obligations with several different nations in the Western Pacific,

 

That's a choice, and it can be changed.

 

This is weird about modern alliances; people pretend that they're eternal and kind of law of nature. Same with NATO.

Gone the times of changing alliances (save for maybe Turkey) - heck, Italians even changed sides during both world wars!

To treat non-self evident things as self-evident may lead to very stupid policies.

 

U.S: and PRC do not need to be rivals or opposing each other, and the U.S. doesn't need to prepare for war against the PRC.

It's all about choices.

 

During the Belle Epoque when there were several leading world powers, each of comparable strength, a certain amount of shifting alliances made sense.  The various nations would jockey for position, but the others were quick to ally against any single nation that became strong enough to disrupt the overall balance of power.

Things are different now.  Can you guess how?  I give you one hint:

yxBtZ0d.jpg

The United States is a world-spanning empire and dominant superpower.  The second place is so far distant that it doesn't even matter.  The United States' foreign policy is to contain any possible rival powers.  Right now that means Russia and China, but India is on notice as well.  One instrument for this containment is the creation of armed states friendly to the USA adjacent to any potential rivals to keep them bottled in.  Unfortunately, the Russians have a habit of calling Sam's bluff on this game (see: Ukraine), so in order for this strategy to work, the US proxies actually need to be armed.

Until the global order of powers changes or plate tectonics moves South Korea further away from China, there is no reason to ever change these alliances.  US territory is not de jure threatened by a Chinese invasion of Japan, but it is de facto, unless you're silly enough to think that Japan isn't a US territory in all meaningful ways.

There are all sorts of invective names you can call this foreign policy; imperialism, neo-colonialism, jingoism, etc.  Nobody cares.  The American Empire will endure for a thousand years, irrespective of the whining of peasants.  The nonsense in Syria is a minor setback caused by Trotskyite wreckers who are being purged as we speak.  Dehumanize yourself and face to Trump.  Hail Satan!

 

You mean, the design of M1AGazillion Abrams? :P

 

 

Ummm...why did the Chinese fighter thread end up about Su-57, and Su-57 thread ended up being about China?

Was that a rhetoric question? If not, the answer is: Because, TankNet :P


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#70 GARGEAN

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Posted 08 March 2018 - 0325 AM

First look at last airframe from prototype series, 510:
28157954_191823861415595_499044050974382

 

All airframes combined:
ctB8mPfFmsU.jpg


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#71 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 08 March 2018 - 0341 AM

How many copies so far can be considered capable of using weapons?


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#72 GARGEAN

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Posted 08 March 2018 - 0434 AM

No hard number. Part of avionic suite is installed at least on 2/3 of airframes. Full suite is presumably at 3 airframes. Radar suite was produced in 11 numbers(at 2016), but parf of that for stat tests and part on flying labs.


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#73 TOW-2

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Posted 29 March 2018 - 1543 PM

A question, and I apologize if it is a dumb one, but why go to the trouble of inventing a "stealth" a/c then hang drop tanks and associated hardware, which is delicious looking to search radars, all over it?


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#74 Josh

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Posted 29 March 2018 - 1553 PM

Presumably for peacetime operations and ferry purposes. US F-22s made extensive use of drop tanks when used to patrol US airspace near Alaska. There isn't an absolute need for stealth on every mission.
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#75 TOW-2

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Posted 29 March 2018 - 2339 PM

Presumably for peacetime operations and ferry purposes. US F-22s made extensive use of drop tanks when used to patrol US airspace near Alaska. There isn't an absolute need for stealth on every mission.

 

Righto.  Thank you.


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#76 KV7

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Posted 30 March 2018 - 1705 PM

Well, that's another scenario:

LO fighters flying along old fighters and picking the kills like seasoned aces did among rookies during WW2.

That way of fighting would surely yield very high kill ratios, but at the expense of the cannon fodder, the "low end" peasants in the mix.

 

It's doubtful that this would work particularly well against LO adversaries, of course.

Make the cannon fodder UAV, problem solved.

 


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#77 Brian Kennedy

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Posted 30 March 2018 - 1731 PM

Well, that's another scenario:
LO fighters flying along old fighters and picking the kills like seasoned aces did among rookies during WW2.
That way of fighting would surely yield very high kill ratios, but at the expense of the cannon fodder, the "low end" peasants in the mix.
 
It's doubtful that this would work particularly well against LO adversaries, of course.


That was pretty much just a German tactic, right?
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#78 GARGEAN

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Posted 20 April 2018 - 1000 AM

FINALLY
http://ajaishukla.bl...vanced.html?m=1
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#79 Josh

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Posted 20 April 2018 - 1219 PM

How much money actually went to Russia before the agreement was cancelled?

IMO an F-35 buy is assured, at least if the US is offering. And if they're willing to still sell to Turkey I'm sure India isn't a problem.
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#80 GARGEAN

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Posted 20 April 2018 - 1326 PM

How much money actually went to Russia before the agreement was cancelled?

IMO an F-35 buy is assured, at least if the US is offering. And if they're willing to still sell to Turkey I'm sure India isn't a problem.

None to RnD, 180 millions on pre-project. As for F-35 - we'll see, has good chance to be screwed for same reasons as real reasons of FGFA death.
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