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Taiwan Wants M1A2T's


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#1 Dawes

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Posted 08 July 2019 - 1923 PM

Presumably there's not much difference between this configuration and other export versions?

 

https://www.dsca.mil...tecro_19-22.pdf


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#2 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 09 July 2019 - 0521 AM

Apologies if this is off topic. But there is clearly much happening in the region.


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#3 Mighty_Zuk

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Posted 09 July 2019 - 0605 AM

Presumably there's not much difference between this configuration and other export versions?
 
https://www.dsca.mil...tecro_19-22.pdf


Seems to be an export equivalent of the M1A2C. Then the usual follows like Tungsten-based armor and ammo. Though that's not guaranteed because I don't know how Taiwan views DU.
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#4 Gavin-Phillips

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Posted 09 July 2019 - 1247 PM

According to the BBC, its been approved.  Not much in the way of details but 108 Abrams tanks (no specific version given), 250 Stinger missiles and other various equipment.

 

https://www.bbc.co.u...d-asia-48917705


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#5 Panzermann

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Posted 09 July 2019 - 1919 PM

According to the BBC, its been approved.  Not much in the way of details but 108 Abrams tanks (no specific version given), 250 Stinger missiles and other various equipment.
 
https://www.bbc.co.u...d-asia-48917705

 
just read the linked pdfi nthe OP or the dsca page: https://www.dsca.mil...ro-m1a2t-abrams

TECRO has requested to buy

  • one hundred eight (108) M1A2T Abrams Tanks;
  • one hundred twenty-two (122) M2 Chrysler Mount Machine Guns;
  • two hundred sixteen (216) M240 Machine Guns;
  • fourteen (14) M88A2 HERCULES Vehicles;
  • sixteen (16) M1070A1 Heavy Equipment Transporters (HET);
  • five hundred seventy-two (572) M1002 TPMP-T1 Rounds;
  • three hundred fifty-nine (359) M831A1 HEAT Rounds;
  • and six hundred twenty-one (621) M865 TPCSPS-T2 Rounds, and
  • eight hundred twenty eight (828) M830Al HEAT Rounds. 
  • Also included are sixteen (16) M1000 Heavy Equipment Transporter (HET) Semi-Trailers;
  • sixty four (64) Export Single Channel Ground and Airborne Radio; System (SINCGARS);
  • one hundred eight (108) AN/PSN-13A Defense Advanced; Global Positioning System (GPS) Receiver (DAGR) with Selective-Availability/Anti-Spoofing Module (SAASM);
  • one hundred thirty eight (138); AN/VAS-5B Driver Vision Enhancer (DVE-A) Kits;
  • one hundred eight (108); M250 Smoke Grenade Launchers;
  • fourteen (14) M239 Smoke Grenade Launchers;
  • seven thousand eight hundred sixty-two (7,862) KEW-Al Rounds;
  • one thousand nine hundred sixty six (1,966) CA38 - Cartridge, l20MM Canister Round;
  • eight hundred sixty four (864) M76 (G826) or L8Al /L8A3 (G815) Smoke Grenade Rounds;
  • eight hundred twenty eight (828) Insensitive Munitions High Explosive Tracer (IMHE-T) rounds;
  • twenty two (22) sets Dummy CTG, 120mm Armor­Piercing, Fin-Stabilized, Discarding Sabot (CA64);
  • twenty two (22) Dummy Cartridge 120mm Canister Ml028;
  • twenty two (22) Dummy M865 TPCSPS-T (C785);
  • FMS export armor; Hunter/Killer technology, Commander's Independent Thermal  Viewer (CITV);  Common  Remotely Operated  Weapon Station-Low Profile (CROWS-LP);  spare parts; support equipment; AGT-1500 tank engines and X-1100 tank transmissions; depot level support; Government-Furnished Equipment (GFE); repair parts; communication support equipment; communication equipment integration; tools and test equipment; training; training simulators; repair and return program; U.S. Government and contractor engineering, technical, and logistics support services; Technical Assistance Field Team (TAFT); and other related elements of logistics and program support. 
Additionally, the following recommended basic load ammunition  may be included  upon request from customer:
  • One hundred  fifteen thousand  four  hundred (115,400) A576 Cartridge, .50 Caliber Linked 4 API/API-T F/M2;
  • one thousand eighty (1,080 ) G8l5 - Grenade, Smoke Screening L8A1/A3;
  • two million four hundred sixty two thousand four hundred (2,462,400) A131 - Cartridge 7.62MM 4 BALL 1 TRACER;
  • one million two hundred  thirty-one thousand  two   hundred (1,231,200) A111 - Cartridge, 7.62mm  Blank M82 Linked;
  • one thousand  five hundred twelve (1,512) A541 - 50 Armor Piercing Incendiary, Tracer M20 F/M2;
  • ninety one thousand eight hundred (91,800) A557 - Cartridge, .50 Caliber 4 Ball/1 Tracer Linked M33 F/M2;
  • fifty four thousand (54,000) A598 - Cartridge, .50 Caliber Blank F/M2 (MILES); and
  • four thousand nine hundred sixty eight  (4,968) AA38 - Cartridge, .50 Caliber M962 (SLAP); and other related elements of logistics and program support.  The total estimated program cost is $2 billion.

tunred into readable list by me

 



Seems to be an export equivalent of the M1A2C. Then the usual follows like Tungsten-based armor and ammo. Though that's not guaranteed because I don't know how Taiwan views DU.

They buy KEW-A1, which is a tungsten round, so I guess they take the tungsten armour option. Though I do not really understand the proposed smallarms muniitons, because taiwan makes these themselves. Well except SLAP I think. Probably just appplied the US Army basicload for that number of Abrams in the proposal.


 



I barely understand a word, but a taiwanese TV news report on this


Edited by Panzermann, 09 July 2019 - 1928 PM.

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#6 Panzermann

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Posted 09 July 2019 - 1927 PM

Beijing is surprisingly not amused:
 


China urges U.S. to withdraw arms sales to Taiwan
Source: Xinhua| 2019-07-09 18:59:25|Editor: Yamei


BEIJING, July 9 (Xinhua) -- China on Tuesday urged the United States to immediately withdraw arms sales to Taiwan and sever military ties with the island.

Foreign Ministry spokesperson Geng Shuang made the comments in response to U.S. planned sales of weapons worth 2.22 billion U.S. dollars to Taiwan, including M1A2 Abrams tanks and Stinger anti-aircraft missiles.

"The U.S. arms sales to Taiwan severely violate international law, the basic norms governing international relations, the one-China principle and the three China-U.S. joint communiques," Geng said. "It grossly interferes in China's internal affairs and undermines China's sovereignty and security interests."
The Chinese side is strongly dissatisfied with and firmly opposes such actions, and have lodged solemn representations with the U.S. side, Geng said at a press conference.
Taiwan is an inalienable part of China's territory, Geng said, adding that no one should underestimate the strong will and firm determination of the Chinese government and people in safeguarding national sovereignty and territorial integrity and opposing foreign interference.
"China urges the United States to honor its commitment to the one-China principle and the three China-U.S. joint communiques, immediately withdraw the aforementioned planned arms sales to and sever military ties with Taiwan to avoid further damage to bilateral relations and peace and stability across the Taiwan Strait," said the spokesperson.

 

http://www.xinhuanet...c_138212260.htm


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#7 Panzermann

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Posted 09 July 2019 - 1944 PM

For those wondering, yes Taiwan's Army made a market survey in 2008:
 

The third generation of the main chariot is expected to purchase the following year
 
With the advancement of technology, the status of the chariot as the key to the battle on the land battlefield remains unaffected. The Taiwan Army plans to implement the third-generation main chariot reloading program in 2010. The picture shows the joint operation of the Army CM11 tank and armored infantry. (Reporter Xu Shaoxuan)
This year's case will be proposed next year.
 
[Reporter Xu Shaoxuan reported in Taipei] After the Army’s procurement of general helicopters and attack helicopters, the army will have important equipment replacement plans! It is pointed out that the Army Command has requested relevant units to carry out preliminary research and data collection on the replacement of the third-generation main chariot. It is expected to start construction this year, propose a budget next year, and start purchasing in 2010, due to the Army concept. With changes and high prices, the old and new tanks will not be replaced one by one, and new and old mixed modes will be deployed.
 
It is understood that the whole case is still in the preliminary research stage. The models collected include M1A2, English (Challenger II), German (Leopard II), France (Reckler) and Israel (Mekava). In the current main battle vehicle, the final decision will also take into account the international situation, and the general advantage of the US-made equipment is greater.
 
American equipment has a greater chance of being selected
 
The Army has three active main battle vehicles, including 460 M60A3TTS vehicles purchased from the United States after the first wave of the Bay War, deployed in the north and the middle; followed by 450 units independently developed by the Bing Center. The CM-11 main chariot is deployed in the central and southern armored units; the other is a hundred CM12 chariots deployed in the Southern Mechanized Infantry Brigade. Although the total number is more than one thousand, after several disarmaments, the actual number of vehicles in service is less than this.
 
It is understood that the Army Command has recently notified the Armored Brigade School and the armored brigade and mechanized infantry brigade officers and the staff of the defending areas to participate in the meeting. The design and performance of the world's advanced national main vehicles are in line with our needs. Is the Taiwan bridge sufficient? The weight of the new chariot is an important consideration.
 
In addition, the automatic bombers that have been used for many years in Russian tanks and French tanks are still not recognized by the Chinese armored forces. Based on the distrust of machinery, many armored officers have stopped the mechanical damage in case of wartime. It will cause the chariot to sit and wait and be highly worried.
 
However, because the 1200-mm shells used in the new-generation tanks are much heavier than the 105-gun shells in service, the future Army loaders should strengthen their training to shorten the loading time.

Spoiler

translated by googlefish

https://web.archive....28/today-p4.htm


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#8 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 10 July 2019 - 0830 AM

Beijing is surprisingly not amused:
 


China urges U.S. to withdraw arms sales to Taiwan
Source: Xinhua| 2019-07-09 18:59:25|Editor: Yamei


BEIJING, July 9 (Xinhua) -- China on Tuesday urged the United States to immediately withdraw arms sales to Taiwan and sever military ties with the island.

Foreign Ministry spokesperson Geng Shuang made the comments in response to U.S. planned sales of weapons worth 2.22 billion U.S. dollars to Taiwan, including M1A2 Abrams tanks and Stinger anti-aircraft missiles.

"The U.S. arms sales to Taiwan severely violate international law, the basic norms governing international relations, the one-China principle and the three China-U.S. joint communiques," Geng said. "It grossly interferes in China's internal affairs and undermines China's sovereignty and security interests."
The Chinese side is strongly dissatisfied with and firmly opposes such actions, and have lodged solemn representations with the U.S. side, Geng said at a press conference.
Taiwan is an inalienable part of China's territory, Geng said, adding that no one should underestimate the strong will and firm determination of the Chinese government and people in safeguarding national sovereignty and territorial integrity and opposing foreign interference.
"China urges the United States to honor its commitment to the one-China principle and the three China-U.S. joint communiques, immediately withdraw the aforementioned planned arms sales to and sever military ties with Taiwan to avoid further damage to bilateral relations and peace and stability across the Taiwan Strait," said the spokesperson.

 

http://www.xinhuanet...c_138212260.htm

 

Gawd, dont they whine. What exactly is illegal about selling weapons to a country to defend itself? They never had an issue arming Iraq to the teeth.


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#9 TTK Ciar

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Posted 10 July 2019 - 1311 PM

What exactly is illegal about selling weapons to a country to defend itself?


Nothing, but China's official position is that Taiwan is a territory of China, not an independent country. That's what the repeated mentions of the "one-China principle" were meant to refer to.

Of course, to those of us who recognize Taiwan's status as an independent country, China's "one-China principle" strengthens the argument for the arms sale.

Compare to Russia's "Ukraine is really part of Russia" narrative.
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#10 Panzermann

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Posted 10 July 2019 - 1433 PM

 

What exactly is illegal about selling weapons to a country to defend itself?


Nothing, but China's official position is that Taiwan is a territory of China, not an independent country. That's what the repeated mentions of the "one-China principle" were meant to refer to.

Of course, to those of us who recognize Taiwan's status as an independent country, China's "one-China principle" strengthens the argument for the arms sale.

Compare to Russia's "Ukraine is really part of Russia" narrative.

 

 

There are similarietes, but also differences. The KMT party claims to be the ruling party of China. All of China. Hence Republic of China. So far I have not heard any ukrianian government claim rulership over all of Russia. 

 

 

 

But it would have been unusual had the CCP not commented on the sale.


Edited by Panzermann, 10 July 2019 - 1435 PM.

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#11 Nobu

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Posted 10 July 2019 - 1445 PM

The imperative aspect of the sale of these "main chariots" to Taipei is that they be devoid of any engineering or technology that could be of benefit to Beijing.


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#12 JasonJ

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Posted 10 July 2019 - 1732 PM

What exactly is illegal about selling weapons to a country to defend itself?

Nothing, but China's official position is that Taiwan is a territory of China, not an independent country. That's what the repeated mentions of the "one-China principle" were meant to refer to.
Of course, to those of us who recognize Taiwan's status as an independent country, China's "one-China principle" strengthens the argument for the arms sale.
Compare to Russia's "Ukraine is really part of Russia" narrative.
 
There are similarietes, but also differences. The KMT party claims to be the ruling party of China. All of China. Hence Republic of China. So far I have not heard any ukrianian government claim rulership over all of Russia. 
 
 
 
But it would have been unusual had the CCP not commented on the sale.

Both the Chinas made agreement that there is only one China. The PRC urges that Taiwan stick to the 1 China policy. So then a way out is if Taiwan no longer claims itslef to be any form of China. But the PRC threatens war on Taiwan for talking about cutting itself off the China identity. So Taiwan is stuck with the old claim on all China.

Edited by JasonJ, 10 July 2019 - 1732 PM.

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#13 Nobu

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Posted 10 July 2019 - 1814 PM

Taiwanese President Tsai sent her navy to the South China Sea with express orders to safeguard Taiwan’s sovereignty there.

 

They apparently want to have their independence cake as long as it is to their benefit, right up to the loss of their UNSC permanent membership, but full title to Chinese territorial claims too.


Edited by Nobu, 10 July 2019 - 1816 PM.

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#14 JasonJ

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Posted 10 July 2019 - 1829 PM

Taiwanese President Tsai sent her navy to the South China Sea with express orders to safeguard Taiwan’s sovereignty there.
 
They apparently want to have their independence cake as long as it is to their benefit, right up to the loss of their UNSC permanent membership, but full title to Chinese territorial claims too.


The Tsai administartion has been speaking about a new narative which basically says that Taiwan in its old history has been an island nation going out and about into the seas. This new narrative is able to be applied to discussions with Japan regarding the Senakaku islands and other motions regarding the South China Sea without relying on the One China Policy. It also gets applied to discussions with Japan regarding Okinotorishima.

But that is all terribly nonrelated to tanks.
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#15 Nobu

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Posted 10 July 2019 - 1857 PM

Rather convenient of these Taiwanese to wait until the PCA ruling against their island claims before creating a new basis for maintaining them
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#16 Jim Warford

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Posted 13 July 2019 - 2345 PM

The KEWA1 APFSDS round...

 

120mm%20KEWA1%20APFSDS_M1A2T_Taiwan_July


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