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Australia Begins Looking For Tiger Replacement


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#1 Dawes

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Posted 09 July 2019 - 1912 PM

Presumably, existing aircraft couldn't be modified/upgraded to meet requirements? 

 

https://www.janes.co...ter-replacement


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#2 Adam_S

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Posted 09 July 2019 - 2131 PM

I think the ADF has pretty much had enough of them by this point.

 

https://warisboring....er-seen-combat/

 

I wonder which way they'll go with the replacement. The AH-64E is a lot of helicopter for what the ADF want to do, so I wonder if some kind of armed scout like the Little Bird might be a possibility. Another option might be the AH-1Z which could presumably operate off of an LHD.


Edited by Adam_S, 09 July 2019 - 2134 PM.

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#3 Yama

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Posted 10 July 2019 - 0334 AM

Logically, successor would be Panther, no?


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#4 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 10 July 2019 - 0339 AM

A variant of the Wildcat might be an alternative.


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#5 lastdingo

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Posted 10 July 2019 - 0357 AM

They wanted a well-rounded miniature military with all the toys the big boys play with.

Now they noticed that they don't have any use for this kind of helicopter.

They will notice by the 2030's they they have little to no use for the super-expensive submarines they're now so eager to buy.

Australian security policy isn't known for being super rational.

 

On the Tiger; the whole program shouldn't have existed in the first place. We could have had Apaches in service in the 80's already.

Same with the Mangusta; Augusta-Bell even produced the AB 412, a Cobra with AB 412 dynamic system was the obvious choice for Italy (and possibly many other European countries).


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#6 Adam_S

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Posted 10 July 2019 - 0738 AM

I think the issues seem to be that it had a prototype-ish nature when it was introduced and sending parts half way around the world back to Airbus for maintenance was a pain in the arse.

 

https://www.australi...two-helicopters


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#7 lastdingo

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Posted 10 July 2019 - 0905 AM

I think the issues seem to be that it had a prototype-ish nature when it was introduced and sending parts half way around the world back to Airbus for maintenance was a pain in the arse.

 

https://www.australi...two-helicopters

 

They certainly send the parts by air freight. This means the delay is maybe ten hours more than for operators in Europe.

Security may be an issue, but transportation in itself shouldn't be one.


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#8 2805662

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Posted 10 July 2019 - 1510 PM

Theres a SOF/light attack/utility helicopter project already ongoing as a sub-phase of project 2097. https://www.tenders....eviewMode=False

The Tiger RFI isnt interested in light attack/utility. Panther & Wildcat are unlikely to meet the requirements. Both AH-64E & AH-1Z are likely contenders.
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#9 2805662

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Posted 10 July 2019 - 1515 PM


I think the issues seem to be that it had a prototype-ish nature when it was introduced and sending parts half way around the world back to Airbus for maintenance was a pain in the arse.
 
https://www.australi...two-helicopters

 
They certainly send the parts by air freight. This means the delay is maybe ten hours more than for operators in Europe.
Security may be an issue, but transportation in itself shouldn't be one.

Youre getting from Europe to Australia in ten hours? The fastest civil flight time from Paris to Brisbane, with a single stop, is 25 hours.
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#10 lastdingo

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Posted 10 July 2019 - 1541 PM

 

 

I think the issues seem to be that it had a prototype-ish nature when it was introduced and sending parts half way around the world back to Airbus for maintenance was a pain in the arse.
 
https://www.australi...two-helicopters

 
They certainly send the parts by air freight. This means the delay is maybe ten hours more than for operators in Europe.
Security may be an issue, but transportation in itself shouldn't be one.

Youre getting from Europe to Australia in ten hours? The fastest civil flight time from Paris to Brisbane, with a single stop, is 25 hours.

 

 

No, but guess what? Europeans don't exactly teleport their broken parts to the manufacturers, either.


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#11 Dawes

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Posted 10 July 2019 - 1937 PM

So how is Tiger working out for the other operators?


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#12 Adam_S

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Posted 10 July 2019 - 2223 PM

So how is Tiger working out for the other operators?

 

Sounds familiar.

 

https://www.defensei...-Purchase-06411

 

 


Germany’s EC665 Tiger UHT/HAC scout and attack helicopters have traveled a long road since the initial 1984 requirement that launched the program. They were originally slated for service in 1992, but technical delays have dogged the project. Schedule slips and funding shortfalls meant that the EUR 3 billion for 80 helicopters wasn’t placed until 1998. Deliveries from Eurocopter began in 2003, but instead of having 67 helicopters in service by the end of 2009, Germany had just 11 – none of which are considered fit for operations, or even for training.

That issue came to a head in May 2010, as the German government moved to suspend the contract until these technical issues are fixed:

  • Unterstutzungshubschrauber: Germany’s Tiger UHT/HAC
  • Updates & Key Events
  • Additional Readings

 

 

TBH, the whole thing sounds more like a work program to keep defense contractors in business and civil servants in jobs than an actual defense program. Development has been agonisingly slow which has been exacerbated by each country's version being substantially different from all the rest.

 

The ADF and Australian government have prior form with this sort of thing too.

 

http://www.australia...DFE0050568C22C9


Edited by Adam_S, 10 July 2019 - 2223 PM.

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#13 lastdingo

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Posted 11 July 2019 - 0611 AM

The German army made up a whole doctrine of bullshit called "Luftmechanisierung" (air mechanization) with all kinds of obvious bollocks and dreams fit more for a Jules Verne novel than for a serious military. They were excessively inspired by that one forward helo base in ODS.

 

They dropped the bullshit real quick once the orders for the Tiger purchases were official. Every single officer who ever wrote anything positive about that bollocks deserves to be kicked out of the military and be stripped of rank for either moral failure or stupidity.


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#14 Chris Werb

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Posted 11 July 2019 - 1322 PM

The thing that always intrigued me about Tiger was the TRIGAT LR missile which I believe is unique to the platform and only in German service. Regardless of the merits of the Tiger, or the flawed operational concepts that led to its purchase, how did the missile turn out?
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#15 Panzermann

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Posted 11 July 2019 - 1412 PM

 

 

 

I think the issues seem to be that it had a prototype-ish nature when it was introduced and sending parts half way around the world back to Airbus for maintenance was a pain in the arse.
 
https://www.australi...two-helicopters

 
They certainly send the parts by air freight. This means the delay is maybe ten hours more than for operators in Europe.
Security may be an issue, but transportation in itself shouldn't be one.

Youre getting from Europe to Australia in ten hours? The fastest civil flight time from Paris to Brisbane, with a single stop, is 25 hours.

 

 

No, but guess what? Europeans don't exactly teleport their broken parts to the manufacturers, either.

 

 

And other similar helicopters are similarly far away from their respective factories.


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#16 Chris Werb

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Posted 11 July 2019 - 1433 PM

The distance from Darwin to Marignane is 13797 km and to Meza, AZ, 13283km, so very similar. If distance to the manufacturer was the sole criterion, the ADF should obviously buy Chinese attack helos. :)
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#17 Colin

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Posted 11 July 2019 - 2115 PM

This is what the ADF should get https://en.wikipedia...ell_AH-1Z_Viper

 

Canada could use some as well.


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#18 Dawes

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Posted 11 July 2019 - 2138 PM

MD Helicopters has offered the "Little Bird" for Australia's SOF requirements:

 

https://www.janes.co...ralian-sof-role


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#19 2805662

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Posted 12 July 2019 - 0225 AM


 


 

 

I think the issues seem to be that it had a prototype-ish nature when it was introduced and sending parts half way around the world back to Airbus for maintenance was a pain in the arse.
 
https://www.australi...two-helicopters

 
They certainly send the parts by air freight. This means the delay is maybe ten hours more than for operators in Europe.
Security may be an issue, but transportation in itself shouldn't be one.
Youre getting from Europe to Australia in ten hours? The fastest civil flight time from Paris to Brisbane, with a single stop, is 25 hours.
 
 
No, but guess what? Europeans don't exactly teleport their broken parts to the manufacturers, either.
 
 
And other similar helicopters are similarly far away from their respective factories.

Quite. Reinforces the ridiculousness of the statement. Spares availability doesn*t refer to transit time, it refers to the fact that spares take forever for this OEM to produce, reducing operational availability.
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#20 Mighty_Zuk

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Posted 12 July 2019 - 0331 AM


So how is Tiger working out for the other operators?

 
Sounds familiar.
 
https://www.defensei...-Purchase-06411
 
 

Germanys EC665 Tiger UHT/HAC scout and attack helicopters have traveled a long road since the initial 1984 requirement that launched the program. They were originally slated for service in 1992, but technical delays have dogged the project. Schedule slips and funding shortfalls meant that the EUR 3 billion for 80 helicopters wasnt placed until 1998. Deliveries from Eurocopter began in 2003, but instead of having 67 helicopters in service by the end of 2009, Germany had just 11 none of which are considered fit for operations, or even for training.
That issue came to a head in May 2010, as the German government moved to suspend the contract until these technical issues are fixed:

  • Unterstutzungshubschrauber: Germanys Tiger UHT/HAC
  • Updates & Key Events
  • Additional Readings
 
 
TBH, the whole thing sounds more like a work program to keep defense contractors in business and civil servants in jobs than an actual defense program. Development has been agonisingly slow which has been exacerbated by each country's version being substantially different from all the rest.
 
The ADF and Australian government have prior form with this sort of thing too.
 
http://www.australia...DFE0050568C22C9

Basically the Arjun of helicopters.
If you got people completing their entire careers in the military between the start of the program and today, when it's still in an early stage, you know that none of importance gave a shit about the program anyway, or someone very important just wanted to be placed somewhere comfortable and for the money to just flow.

And it's a no brainer that everyone who buys this garbage will want a radically different version. A mid 80's helicopter is not fit for the reality of the 2020's, so it needs serious upgrades to meet ends.
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