Jump to content


Photo

German 15 Cm Sfh 18


  • Please log in to reply
99 replies to this topic

#61 Ken Estes

Ken Estes

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 14,727 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Seattle
  • Interests:USMC Tanker, Historian

Posted 07 June 2019 - 0200 AM

The DAK had to struggle with what, over 30 different makes and nationalities of motor transport and prime movers, plus booty machines? Sheer nightmare for the loggies. 


  • 0

#62 Markus Becker

Markus Becker

    Crew

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 3,837 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Westphalia, Germany

Posted 07 June 2019 - 0358 AM

The DAK too? One would think that such a small force was less patchwork than the Ostheer in terms of motors vehicles.
  • 0

#63 lastdingo

lastdingo

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 4,629 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Germany

Posted 07 June 2019 - 0455 AM

The Wehrmacht tried to at least reduce the diversity of civilian brands in divisions since 1943 or so.

Photographic evidence suggests that such efforts had negligible effect.

 

They did sort out the outright unsuitable vehicles (Tatra trucks and such) from army field formations and limited them to rear area, Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine use.


  • 0

#64 Rich

Rich

    intellectual bully ilk

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 4,423 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:WW II, Current Defense Issues, Military History in General

Posted 07 June 2019 - 0949 AM

The Wehrmacht tried to at least reduce the diversity of civilian brands in divisions since 1943 or so.

Photographic evidence suggests that such efforts had negligible effect.

 

They did sort out the outright unsuitable vehicles (Tatra trucks and such) from army field formations and limited them to rear area, Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine use.

 

It wasn't 1943, it was March 1939 when Oberst Adolf von Schell presented the plan commissioned in November 1938. By that time it was becoming obvious the Einheits program vehicles were too complex (the Einheits series vehicles were discontinued by 1941). Schell's plan reduced the number of LKW types in Wehrmacht service from 114 to 19 and PKW from 52 to 30. The plan became effective on 1 January 1940. However, the effect was minimal, since it only applied to production in the Grossreich, where motor vehicle manufacturer was severely curtailed during mobilization when much of the exiting plant was converted to manufacturing other components (such as for aircraft production) or was idled. It also of course had no effect on the huge number of vehicles seized in Poland, France and the Low Countries, and the Balkans, which were pressed into Wehrmacht service.


  • 0

#65 Rich

Rich

    intellectual bully ilk

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 4,423 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:WW II, Current Defense Issues, Military History in General

Posted 07 June 2019 - 0951 AM

The DAK too? One would think that such a small force was less patchwork than the Ostheer in terms of motors vehicles.

 

IIRC, about 20% of the Grossraumtransport of DAK were comprised of civilian vehicles requisitioned in Tripoli.


  • 0

#66 lastdingo

lastdingo

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 4,629 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Germany

Posted 07 June 2019 - 1418 PM

 

The Wehrmacht tried to at least reduce the diversity of civilian brands in divisions since 1943 or so.

Photographic evidence suggests that such efforts had negligible effect.

 

They did sort out the outright unsuitable vehicles (Tatra trucks and such) from army field formations and limited them to rear area, Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine use.

 

It wasn't 1943, it was March 1939 when Oberst Adolf von Schell presented the plan commissioned in November 1938. By that time it was becoming obvious the Einheits program vehicles were too complex (the Einheits series vehicles were discontinued by 1941). Schell's plan reduced the number of LKW types in Wehrmacht service from 114 to 19 and PKW from 52 to 30. The plan became effective on 1 January 1940. However, the effect was minimal, since it only applied to production in the Grossreich, where motor vehicle manufacturer was severely curtailed during mobilization when much of the exiting plant was converted to manufacturing other components (such as for aircraft production) or was idled. It also of course had no effect on the huge number of vehicles seized in Poland, France and the Low Countries, and the Balkans, which were pressed into Wehrmacht service.

 

 

No, you're referring to the production planning. I was writing about the mid-war Typenbereinigung.

Some general did also gut the quantity of motorcycles in infantry divisions by very much while on a break from front service, IIRC it was v.Mellenthin.


  • 0

#67 Rich

Rich

    intellectual bully ilk

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 4,423 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:WW II, Current Defense Issues, Military History in General

Posted 07 June 2019 - 1822 PM

No, you're referring to the production planning. I was writing about the mid-war Typenbereinigung.

Some general did also gut the quantity of motorcycles in infantry divisions by very much while on a break from front service, IIRC it was v.Mellenthin.

 

 

Okay, yes I see what you meant now. Yes, the 1943 reduction in vehicles associated with the reorganization of the Infanterie, Infanterie (mot), and Panzer divisions to the Typ-43 and Frei Gliederung reorganization of the Tross in 1943-1944 resulted in a considerable reduction in the number of motor vehicles in the Infanterie, as well as a considerable rationalization in motorization at the front overall.

 

I'm not sure how Mellenthin could do anything about gutting or augmenting motorcycles in units since it literally wasn't his department? :D


  • 0

#68 seahawk

seahawk

    military loving leftist peace monkey

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 3,787 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:The land where time stands still

Posted 08 June 2019 - 0315 AM

A bad truck is still better than no truck.


  • 0

#69 lastdingo

lastdingo

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 4,629 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Germany

Posted 08 June 2019 - 0622 AM

I'm not sure how Mellenthin could do anything about gutting or augmenting motorcycles in units since it literally wasn't his department? :D


IIRC he wrote about it in his memoir.
  • 0

#70 Rich

Rich

    intellectual bully ilk

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 4,423 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:WW II, Current Defense Issues, Military History in General

Posted 08 June 2019 - 0858 AM

A bad truck is still better than no truck.

 

Yes, but a good or bad truck with no fuel isn't a truck, it's a stationary object. The number of vehicles in the infantry division was scaled back to reduce fuel consumption.


  • 0

#71 seahawk

seahawk

    military loving leftist peace monkey

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 3,787 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:The land where time stands still

Posted 08 June 2019 - 0911 AM

Surely, as the supply situation was dire, but it does not say anything about the value of motorisation. It is obvious that motorized units only make sense if you can get them the POL they need.


  • 0

#72 rmgill

rmgill

    Strap-hanger

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 23,751 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:33.8369/-84.2675
  • Interests:WWII Armor, Ferrets, Dingos, Humbers, etc...

Posted 08 June 2019 - 1517 PM

What was wrong with the WWII era Tatras? 


  • 0

#73 lastdingo

lastdingo

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 4,629 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Germany

Posted 08 June 2019 - 1651 PM

What was wrong with the WWII era Tatras?


Die tschechischen Marken Tatra, Skoda und Praga führten den Bau der eigenen Typen (...) bis zum Kriegsende weiter. Diese Fahrzeuge wurden zum großen Teil den Armeen verbündeter Staaten zur Verfügung gestellt (...). Die tschechischen Sechsrad-Gelände-.Lastkraftwagen mit Zentralrohrrahmen, Pendelschwingachsen und zwillingsbereiften Hinterrädern vermochten die hoffnungsvollen Erwartungen nicht zu erfüllen, die man in sie setzte. Galten doch bis dahin gerade die Fahrzeuge dieser Bauart als Paradebeispiele für kompromißlos gebaute Geländeautomobile.
Dabei zeigten sie sich inbezug auf die Geländegängigkeit dem Einheits-Diesel oder dem 3 to Opel-Blitz als beträchtlich unterlegen. Überdies waren die komplizierten Fahrwerke und erstaunlicherweise auch die Motoren derart störungsanfällig, daß die tschechischen Gelände-Lastkraftwagen bei den deutschen Soldaten bald ebenso unbeliebt wie gefürchtet waren. Die Fahrzeuge fielen - und zwar keineswegs durch Feindeinwirkung - beim Vormarsch nach Rußland bereits in den ersten Wochen fast alle aus, und die wenigen übriggebliebenen wurden dann beim Troß oder als Werkstattwagen für die (Instandsetzuungstrupps) verwendet (...).

"The Czech brands Tatra, Skoda and Praga continued the production of their own types till war's end. These vehicles were mostly provided to armies of allied states. The czech six wheel offroad trucks with central tubular frame (?), pendulum oscillating axles (?) and twin-wheeled rear wheels were not able to fulfil the high hopes. Vehicles of this design were considered exemplary no-compromise design offroad motor vehicles.
They proved to be considerably inferior in offroad mobility to EInheits-Diesel (German 2-t on 6x6 trucks) or the 3 ton Opel Blitz (he likely meant the 4x4 "A" version of the famous truck). Furthermore, their complicated chassis frames and astonishingly also their engines were so very much prone to breakdowns, that the Czech trucks were soon as unpopular as feared among the German soldiers. Almost all the vehicles failed - and not at all due to enemy action - during the advance to Russia already in the first few weeks, and the few survivors were then used in the train or as repair shop vehicles."
(The text goes on after the quote stating that workshops had the personnel to take proper care of these trucks, if there was such personnel anywhere at all.)
 
----------------
 
So quite the same issue as with the "Einheits-" cars of the Wehrmacht. The 1930's ideas of optimal offroad motor vehicles were overengineered in both Germany and Czechoslovakia. They were too thirsty, too expensive, too susceptible (and some German "Einheits"-car designs were also too prone to accidents due to two-axle steering).
The most successful vehicles were the VW Kübelwagen (which didn't have 4x4, but a smooth underside, robust air-cooled engine and was very lightweight), the Opel 3-ton "Blitz" truck (standard or "S" version) and its later 4x4 "A" version.
 
related
https://defense-and-...ry-vehicle.html
 
 
BTW, this may also explain why so few all-wheels tractors were in use with the Wehrmacht for guns heavier than 700 kg. "Opel Blitz A" was useful up to 7.5 cm Pak 40 weights, except on soft soils. The few precious Einheitsdiesel survivors were not rebuilt into tractors despite potential; they were valued as radio vehicles and such.
Half-tracks were not available in the desirable quantity

Edited by lastdingo, 08 June 2019 - 1651 PM.

  • 0

#74 rmgill

rmgill

    Strap-hanger

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 23,751 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:33.8369/-84.2675
  • Interests:WWII Armor, Ferrets, Dingos, Humbers, etc...

Posted 08 June 2019 - 1709 PM

"(The text goes on after the quote stating that workshops had the personnel to take proper care of these trucks, if there was such personnel anywhere at all.)"

Ahh, so the issue was the ability to have the troops perform proper maintenance on them rather than bad designs per se? My neighbor has a Pinzgauer which is arguably far more complex than my 2.5 ton M35. Both from the same time frame but with VERY different philosophies of design. 

Both can be abused, but the repairs of the 2.5 ton's axle are easier than the repairs of the Pinzgauer axle. However, the pinzgauer can go places I couldn't dream of taking my Deuce. From studies of the Tatra equivalents, they're setup the same as the Pinzgauer and are likewise FAR more capable off road. 


  • 0

#75 lastdingo

lastdingo

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 4,629 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Germany

Posted 08 June 2019 - 1804 PM

Well, the Tatras were apparently worse offroad or on muddy unpaved roads than the Opel Blitz, so nowhere near worth the effort.

 

opel_blitz_36_6700a-1.jpg

 3 ton Opel Blitz "A" (4x4)

 

101640_68495.jpg

 

https://ibb.co/2NY3CQY


Edited by lastdingo, 08 June 2019 - 1805 PM.

  • 0

#76 Chris Werb

Chris Werb

    In Zod We Trust

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 24,121 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Orkney, Scotland, UK
  • Interests:But it's got electrolytes! They're what plants crave!

Posted 08 June 2019 - 2001 PM

I think Ryan means post war Tatras - probably the T813 series.


  • 0

#77 rmgill

rmgill

    Strap-hanger

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 23,751 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:33.8369/-84.2675
  • Interests:WWII Armor, Ferrets, Dingos, Humbers, etc...

Posted 08 June 2019 - 2010 PM

It's this bit that's seemingly contradictory. 

"Vehicles of this design were considered exemplary no-compromise design offroad motor vehicles. 

They proved to be considerably inferior in offroad mobility to EInheits-Diesel"


I'm trying to understand why it was. It it was as simple as the operators didn't maintain the more technically complex to keep up systems on the tatras, I can see why. 

My M35 has an air-shift front axle. The earlier designs had a sprag clutch in the transfer case that would engage the front if things slipped. Very little to maintain for the soldier. By comparison, the axle engagement on the Pinzgauer is hydraulic. That's more for the driver to keep up with, but it gives the driver more options and control, which can be bad for a barely trained conscript who's given the task to drive a truck. Whack the lever down at the wrong time and you can break things. 


  • 0

#78 lastdingo

lastdingo

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 4,629 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Germany

Posted 08 June 2019 - 2312 PM

There are multiple possible reasons.

 

- double tires prone to damage by stones stuck in between (differs from vehicle type to vehicle type a bit)

- gearbox may have been unsuitable (not an uncommon problem those days)

- engine unsuitable for offroad load factors (petrol engines were still dominant in European trucks at the time; the V8 engine of the Ford Model B series was used in Ford 3-ton trucks and proved to be horrible for it despite nominally having enough hp)

- likely no differential lock

- three axles digging deeper into muddy road than two axles

 

Remember, that time was the infancy of offroad driving.

 

 

Anyway; according to Wikipedia the Tatra 92/93 wasn't built in large numbers anyway. Oswald may have had some horrible personal experience with those Tatra trucks to nevertheless write about them that much.

 

 

@Chris;

no way


  • 0

#79 DougRichards

DougRichards

    Doug Richards

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 10,087 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Looking at Tamarama Beach, Sydney, Aust
  • Interests:Degree in History and Politics. Interests are Military History, military models,

Posted 09 June 2019 - 0131 AM

Possible poor quality control amongst the workers in occupied lands may have played a part in multiple breakdowns.  The workers could have built to just within allowed tolerances so as to not bring down sanctions, without building to the best standards they were capable of.


  • 0

#80 Markus Becker

Markus Becker

    Crew

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 3,837 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Westphalia, Germany

Posted 09 June 2019 - 0641 AM

Possible poor quality control amongst the workers in occupied lands may have played a part in multiple breakdowns.  The workers could have built to just within allowed tolerances so as to not bring down sanctions, without building to the best standards they were capable of.

 

Maybe but according to a book I read decades ago the Nazis were acting really clever when the occupied Czechoslovakia. First they raised the wages, then introduced a German style social security system with health insurance, paid vacations, pensions the lot. And then they raised the wages again. Informer reported that the Czechoslovakian workers considered Nazi Germany to be the most working class friendly regime.

 

 

Re Italian trucks:

 

The North Africa special of the Croatian magazine Husar gives them good marks. They were a bit small because the were designed for the mountain roads in North Italy, the one with four wheel drive were so good that the French Air Force ordered a few hundred, while the Italian army prefered the simpler two wheel drive version, which saw quite a bit of service on both sides during and after Operation Compass. The Aussies weren't the only ones who nicked other people's stuff. 


  • 0




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users