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Battle Of Long Tan


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#1 John_Ford

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Posted 28 April 2019 - 0032 AM





Appears promising. Only question is why such small force and limited Reaction assets?
I remember in Iraq when a company of Deuce 4 of 1 Brigade 25 ID got into a Scrap and the whole battalion piled in with Nick
Moran and his tank company rolling out as the QRF.
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#2 DougRichards

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Posted 28 April 2019 - 0656 AM

I worked for 13 years with a K1W1 who was a signaller with the NZ Artillery at this battle.  He said that he was there, and that the artillery did what they could, but didn't say much more.


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#3 John_Ford

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Posted 29 April 2019 - 1549 PM

1 ATF ORBAT:

1 ATF consisted of two infantry battalions—5 RAR commanded by Lieutenant Colonel John Warr, and 6 RAR under Lieutenant Colonel Colin Townsend.  Other units included the 1st APC Squadron operating M113 armoured personnel carriers; 1st Field Regiment, Royal Australian Artillery consisting   of the New Zealand 161st Battery and two Australian batteries equipped with eighteen 105 mm L5 Pack Howitzers; as well as six 155 mm M109  self-propelled howitzers from A Battery, 2nd Battalion, 35th Artillery Regiment permanently attached at Nui Dat; 3rd SAS Squadron;  1st Field Squadron and 21st Engineer Support Troop; 103rd Signals Squadron; 161st Reconnaissance Flight operating Cessna 180s and  Bell H-13 Sioux light observation helicopters; and an intelligence detachment.


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#4 NickM

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Posted 29 April 2019 - 1842 PM





Appears promising. Only question is why such small force and limited Reaction assets?
I remember in Iraq when a company of Deuce 4 of 1 Brigade 25 ID got into a Scrap and the whole battalion piled in with Nick
Moran and his tank company rolling out as the QRF.

 

Good! Not a documentary, but an actual docudrama--been waiting for this for a while since IMDB went away; All I know is that it a meeting engagement and not an ambush so the NVA (and I heard it was a regiment sized unit)  was NOT in bunkers and could not take it's time chopping up and the Diggers were not dug in...so the Diggers improvised & maneuvered and the NVA (basically being 'in the open'--IE NOT in prepared positions of their own choosing ) tried to find a way to try to 'swarm them with bodies'. It said a lot about the Australians' jungle fighting skills that they kept the NVA at bay


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#5 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 30 April 2019 - 0329 AM

This looks good. Interesting that the Soldiers had a mix of M16 and SLR. Was it the RAR that had the SLR's, and the Australian SAS that had the M16's?


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#6 bojan

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Posted 30 April 2019 - 0635 AM

They mixed them in the sections, M16 being largely replacement for the SMGs.


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#7 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 30 April 2019 - 0803 AM

Thats interesting. Did they employ L7's (or L4's) as section weapons, like we did?


Edited by Stuart Galbraith, 30 April 2019 - 0804 AM.

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#8 bojan

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Posted 30 April 2019 - 1037 AM

No, M60s.

 

Section:

Command group:

- Section leader - SMG/M16

- Scout 1 - SMG/M16

- Scout 2 - FAL

 

Gun group:

- Assistant section leader - FAL + M79. FAL was often replaced by M16

- MG gunner - M60 + pistol

- Assistant MG gunner - FAL

 

Rifle group:

- Riflemen x 3 - FAL

 

Sometimes one of the riflemen also got M16


Edited by bojan, 30 April 2019 - 1657 PM.

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#9 DougRichards

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Posted 30 April 2019 - 1658 PM

No, M60s.

 

Section:

Command group:

- Section leader - SMG/M16

- Scout 1 - SMG/M16

- Scout 2 - FAL

 

Gun group:

- Assistant section leader - FAL + M79

- MG gunner - M60 + pistol

- Assistant MG gunner - FAL

 

Rifle group:

- Riflemen x 3 - FAL

 

Sometimes one of the riflemen also got M16

 

My memories, confirmed by https://en.wikipedia...Australian_Armywas that a section was ten men.

 

So

 

Section:

Command group:

- Section leader - SMG/M16 Corporal

- Scout 1 - SMG/M16

- Scout 2 - FAL

 

Gun group:

- Assistant section leader - FAL + M79 Lance Corporal

- MG gunner - M60 + pistol

- Assistant MG gunner - FAL

 

Rifle group:

- Riflemen x 4 - FAL

 

 

I also remember some of my cadet instructors mentioning that sometimes one of the scouts unofficially carried a 12 gauge shotgun,


Edited by DougRichards, 30 April 2019 - 1659 PM.

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#10 JWB

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Posted 30 April 2019 - 1948 PM

On a related question did the Australian force carry out a formal body count of enemy dead in that war?


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#11 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 01 May 2019 - 0217 AM

No, M60s.

 

Section:

Command group:

- Section leader - SMG/M16

- Scout 1 - SMG/M16

- Scout 2 - FAL

 

Gun group:

- Assistant section leader - FAL + M79. FAL was often replaced by M16

- MG gunner - M60 + pistol

- Assistant MG gunner - FAL

 

Rifle group:

- Riflemen x 3 - FAL

 

Sometimes one of the riflemen also got M16

 

Should have guessed, their Huey's were mounting M60's as well.

 

Thanks.


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#12 bojan

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Posted 01 May 2019 - 0516 AM

...

Section:

Command group:

- Section leader - SMG/M16 Corporal

- Scout 1 - SMG/M16

- Scout 2 - FAL

 

Gun group:

- Assistant section leader - FAL + M79 Lance Corporal

- MG gunner - M60 + pistol

- Assistant MG gunner - FAL

 

Rifle group:

- Riflemen x 4 - FAL

 

 

I also remember some of my cadet instructors mentioning that sometimes one of the scouts unofficially carried a 12 gauge shotgun,

 

 

Thanks, I guess that difference in riflemen strength being due the fact that in field sections are only rarely with full complement of men.


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#13 Coldsteel

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Posted 01 May 2019 - 0730 AM

They mixed them in the sections, M16 being largely replacement for the SMGs.

 

This, although some of the blokes in the trailer are still carrying Owen guns.


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#14 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 01 May 2019 - 0754 AM

SOG were still using Sten MkIIS at the time. Although it was only for snatches off the trail.


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#15 NickM

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Posted 01 May 2019 - 0826 AM

SOG were still using Sten MkIIS at the time. Although it was only for snatches off the trail.

 

Silenced ones to be clear--though I think they were supplanted by the Swedish 'K' with silencer soon enough.


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#16 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 01 May 2019 - 0854 AM

Yeah, the MKIIS, the silenced version. They used to dismantle them after using them, which kind of illustrates the Stens beloved capacity to go off all by itself never quite departed.

 

They used all kinds of wierd stuff, including Swedish grenades and foreign boots if I remember rightly. All for plausible deniability, which was a lot of crap because its not like the The NVA ever were big on taking prisoners.

 

There was also an offshoot of SOG that used Swedish fast patrol boats off the North Vietnam coast if I remember rightly.


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#17 MiloMorai

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Posted 01 May 2019 - 1652 PM

"It said a lot about the Australians' jungle fighting skills that they kept the NVA at bay"

​

Had lots of experience in PNG fighting the Japanes in WW2.


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#18 DougRichards

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Posted 01 May 2019 - 1826 PM

"It said a lot about the Australians' jungle fighting skills that they kept the NVA at bay"

​

Had lots of experience in PNG fighting the Japanes in WW2.

 

And some in Malaya as well.

 

Also the Australians had good artillery support and armoured support in the last stages of the battle.  The cavalry unit leader twice disobeying orders to push onto the battlefield.


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#19 NickM

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Posted 01 May 2019 - 2233 PM

 

"It said a lot about the Australians' jungle fighting skills that they kept the NVA at bay"

​

Had lots of experience in PNG fighting the Japanes in WW2.

 

And some in Malaya as well.

 

Also the Australians had good artillery support and armoured support in the last stages of the battle.  The cavalry unit leader twice disobeying orders to push onto the battlefield.

 

Yeah and hadn't the Aussies done a few rounds against Indonesia during 'The Confrontation'?


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#20 John_Ford

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Posted 01 May 2019 - 2305 PM

Sidebar comment.   Australian Armor support in the MK5 Cent C Squadron 1st Armoured Regiment arrived in Feb 1968.    The Task Force Commander got an additional Infantry Battalion in December 1967 and two Rifle Companies from 1 RNZIR in May of 1967.   The NZ Rifle companies were combined into 2 RAR rifle Battalion resulting in a 5 Company strength unit.   


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