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Bravo! Military Practicing Old-School Nav


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#1 shep854

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Posted 05 December 2018 - 0907 AM

https://www.strategy...s/20181205.aspx

"Ten heavy bombers (B-52, B-1B and B-2) flew in while the GPS was off and tested their skills at navigating without GPS..."

"It was found that without GPS the younger troops, sailors and pilots could still do it old school and seemed to relish the challenge."


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#2 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 05 December 2018 - 0931 AM

Wonder if there is room to retrofit one of these in a B1?


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#3 Josh

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Posted 05 December 2018 - 0946 AM

For an aircraft, couldn't you use radar mapping to get a very good fix if you were overflying a know area? This is how TERCOM worked. In that case the waypoints would be very specific, but I would have thought strategic bombers now adays could carry the radar imagery of an entire theater for reference purposes. This would mean illuminating your radar, but depending on the threat or stand off range, that would be acceptable in most situations. If nothing else, it might allow precise terminal weapon delivery and presumably the gig is up once you start releasing weapons anyway.


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#4 GARGEAN

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Posted 05 December 2018 - 1004 AM

For an aircraft, couldn't you use radar mapping to get a very good fix if you were overflying a know area? This is how TERCOM worked. In that case the waypoints would be very specific, but I would have thought strategic bombers now adays could carry the radar imagery of an entire theater for reference purposes. This would mean illuminating your radar, but depending on the threat or stand off range, that would be acceptable in most situations. If nothing else, it might allow precise terminal weapon delivery and presumably the gig is up once you start releasing weapons anyway.

Pretty hard to perform while flying over Pole or ocean...
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#5 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 05 December 2018 - 1007 AM


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#6 shep854

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Posted 05 December 2018 - 1019 AM

Arctic nav is a real headache, even with GPS.  Radio get really screwy towards the poles.


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#7 Josh

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Posted 05 December 2018 - 1027 AM

deleted


Edited by Josh, 05 December 2018 - 1031 AM.

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#8 Josh

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Posted 05 December 2018 - 1030 AM

 

For an aircraft, couldn't you use radar mapping to get a very good fix if you were overflying a know area? This is how TERCOM worked. In that case the waypoints would be very specific, but I would have thought strategic bombers now adays could carry the radar imagery of an entire theater for reference purposes. This would mean illuminating your radar, but depending on the threat or stand off range, that would be acceptable in most situations. If nothing else, it might allow precise terminal weapon delivery and presumably the gig is up once you start releasing weapons anyway.

Pretty hard to perform while flying over Pole or ocean...

 

I wasn't implying it should be a singular source of navigation, but it would allow PGM delivery where as most other nav methods short of GPS would not. Presumably you could refine your position when you made landfall.

 

Arctic nav is a real headache, even with GPS.  Radio get really screwy towards the poles.

 

Besides the bad radio conditions, I was under the impression GPS orbits were sub optimal for good coverage over the poles as well.


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#9 Chris Werb

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Posted 05 December 2018 - 1647 PM

First of all, how accurate is a modern, high end INS over say an hour? If you then have something like a sniper pod it could update your INS in clear weather by locking onto an object of known location and tracking and ranging it. Alternately, with two such pods you could do it passively by triangulation.
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#10 Chris Werb

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Posted 05 December 2018 - 1705 PM

I found one source claiming that "modern" INS used by aircraft drift by c. 0.6 nautical miles per hour. That's lousy for even a strategic weapon used over the poles, but it would get a human crew within sight and certainly within radar range of known objects to get a fix on even after a transpolar flight. RC135s use celestial to update their INS. I wonder how accurate that is?
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#11 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 0324 AM

I found one source claiming that "modern" INS used by aircraft drift by c. 0.6 nautical miles per hour. That's lousy for even a strategic weapon used over the poles, but it would get a human crew within sight and certainly within radar range of known objects to get a fix on even after a transpolar flight. RC135s use celestial to update their INS. I wonder how accurate that is?

 

It was certainly adequate for civilian airliners flying the Atlantic or the Pacific until the not too distant past. Or at least was, assuming it wasn't flown by a South Korean.

 

Its worth remembering that RAF Black Buck operations would also have been flown near exclusively by  INS. I seem to recall the Black Buck Vulcans were fitted with an INS system that had been removed from VC10's awaiting conversion into RAF Tankers. Thats 3300 nautical miles.


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#12 DB

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 0833 AM

For an aircraft, couldn't you use radar mapping to get a very good fix if you were overflying a know area? This is how TERCOM worked. In that case the waypoints would be very specific, but I would have thought strategic bombers now adays could carry the radar imagery of an entire theater for reference purposes. This would mean illuminating your radar, but depending on the threat or stand off range, that would be acceptable in most situations. If nothing else, it might allow precise terminal weapon delivery and presumably the gig is up once you start releasing weapons anyway.

Pretty hard to perform while flying over Pole or ocean...
You can't rely on GPS at high latitudes, either.
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#13 shep854

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 0949 AM

KC-135s no longer carry dedicated navigators, though the mount for celestial nav is still in the roof.  As far as I know, celestial navigation is no longer used aboard US aircraft.


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#14 Chris Werb

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 1912 PM

KC-135s no longer carry dedicated navigators, though the mount for celestial nav is still in the roof.  As far as I know, celestial navigation is no longer used aboard US aircraft.

 

RC-135s have this, Pete.

 

http://www.northropg...ents/ln120g.pdf

 

http://www.defense-a...on-(aug-4).html


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#15 shep854

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 0919 AM

Thanks,Chris! :)

 I was harking back to a FAMFLIGHT I took on a KC-135 back around '05 or so.  The fitting for the navigator's sextant was still in the flight deck overhead, but the actual flying/navigating was done by the pilot/copilot.

I'm sure the automated systems are much faster and more accurate.


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#16 RETAC21

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Posted 02 April 2020 - 0947 AM

Doesn't really fit here but rather than open a new thread, 2 contenders:

 

patrol ship 1500 tons

 

naiguata-patrol-vessel-venezuela.e55ea4.

 

Cruise ship: 8300 tons

 

765-bb10eb83213b.jpg

 

One winner:

 

https://www.maritime...ith-cruise-ship


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#17 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 02 April 2020 - 1041 AM

This is going to make such an awesome Osprey book. :D


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#18 BansheeOne

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Posted 03 April 2020 - 0920 AM

Naval Patrol Boat Takes on Cruise Ship. Loses Real Bad.


Turns out you shouldn't ram a cruise ship built to withstand sea ice.

 

By Kyle Mizokami Apr 2, 2020
 
The Venezuelan Navy offshore patrol vessel Naiguata, sent to intercept a lowly cruise ship, accidentally owned itself on Monday. After ramming the cruise ship RCGS Resolute's steel-reinforced hull, the patrol boat sank. (The good news: There were no injuries.)

 

The Resolute suffered only minor damage because it was reinforced to withstand iceberg-infested waters.

 

According to Maritime Executive, the incident took place 13 nautical miles off the coast of Isla de Tortuga, an uninhabited Venezuelan island. The Naiguata ordered the Resolute to follow it to Venezuela and port, on the pretext of “violation of Venezuelan territorial waters.”

 

While the cruise ship crew was consulting with the home office, the navy vessel fired several warning shots and began ramming the cruise ship.

 

What the crew of the Naiguata apparently did not realize was that the Resolute’s hull is stronger than average because of its iceberg-resistant hull. The ship’s website describes the hull as having “high density steel plating” to allow it to sail in “ice laden large waters.”

 

Columbia Cruise Services, operators of the Resolute, tell the ship’s side of the story:


  While the RCGS RESOLUTE sustained minor damages, not affecting vessel’s seaworthiness, it occurs that the navy vessel suffered severe damages while making contact with the ice-strengthened bulbous bow of the ice-class expedition cruise vessel RCGS RESOLUTE and started to take water.   

 

While the Master was in contact with the head office, gun shots were fired and, shortly thereafter, the navy vessel approached the starboard side at speed with an angle of 135° and purposely collided with the RCGS RESOLUTE. The navy vessel continued to ram the starboard bow in an apparent attempt to turn the ship’s head towards Venezuelan territorial waters.

 

The Naiguata ended up sinking. According to Columbia Cruise Services, Resolute stayed in the vicinity until the Maritime Rescue Coordination Centre (MRCC) Curaçao, the authority responsible for local incidents at sea, told it to continue on its voyage. Resolute also claims that offers to lend aid to the stricken ship were “left unanswered.”

 

The Venezuelan military disputed that, stating “the action of the ship Resolute is considered cowardly and criminal, since it did not attend to the rescue of the crew, in breach of the international regulations that regulate the rescue of life at sea.”

 

A statement attributed to Venezuelan President Nicolás Maduro alleged that the cruise ship was actually to blame in an "act of aggression and piracy."

After being released by the MRCC, the Resolute sailed on to safety, docking at the island of Curaçao.

 

[...]

 

https://www.popularm...e-ship-collide/


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#19 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 03 April 2020 - 0933 AM

They should really paint a kill marking on the bridge......


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#20 JasonJ

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Posted 03 April 2020 - 0953 AM

A Japanese destroyer collided with a Chinese fishing boat, getting a meter long gash, on Monday evening in the East China Sea. Reported to be 650km west of Yukashima island, making it about 150km east of Shanghai. Both sides seem eerily calm about it, even though the whole virus thing might be a distraction. The Japanese destroyer was one of the older ones.

https://www.defensew...at#.XodK1eozbcs

https://www3.nhk.or....ws/20200331_04/


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