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#41 Mighty_Zuk

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Posted 21 August 2019 - 1040 AM

The Singapore Hunter IFV reminds me a lot of the Carmel. I am under the impression Israel and Singapore have fairly close ties, and I wonder how much Israel tech may be in the Hunter, if any at all. 
 
9R66PUp.jpg


Literally the entire turret is made by Rafael, one of 3 Israeli companies that showcased a demonstrator for the Carmel.

Of course, what matters is the camera setup on the outside, new sensors, sensor fusion, and the UI for all that data.

The Hunter's cockpit seems to be going the Carmel's way, but it's still rather limited and not providing the same level of immersiveness as the Carmel seeks to get.
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#42 Mr King

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Posted 21 August 2019 - 1227 PM

Thanks Mighty_Zuk


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#43 Colin

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Posted 21 August 2019 - 2242 PM

 

Keep in mind the maximum distance a Israel IFV is expected to operate in for the most part, is likley within 40km of the border.


Which is completely irrelevant for the vehicle's design, or the structure of its support chain.

 

It's incredibly relevant to any vehicle the Israelis build. Literately they can truck the vehicle back to the factory from the frontline within hours. A vehicle used by an expeditionary force may have very limited ability to fix or repair various items and only limited stocks of parts. The Israelis can "tune" their vehicles to the terrain and threat they know that they will face. Countries like Canada, UK or a force like the USMC may not know where they be fighting next. 


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#44 Panzermann

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Posted 22 August 2019 - 0537 AM

 

 

Keep in mind the maximum distance a Israel IFV is expected to operate in for the most part, is likley within 40km of the border.


Which is completely irrelevant for the vehicle's design, or the structure of its support chain.

 

It's incredibly relevant to any vehicle the Israelis build. Literately they can truck the vehicle back to the factory from the frontline within hours. A vehicle used by an expeditionary force may have very limited ability to fix or repair various items and only limited stocks of parts. The Israelis can "tune" their vehicles to the terrain and threat they know that they will face. Countries like Canada, UK or a force like the USMC may not know where they be fighting next. 

 

 

The IDF also spends the same time if not more driving around training areas as other armies. I doubt they would be happy only driving 40 kilometres. Also they have had wars like the six days war that certainly added up more track kilometres than 40. Also it cuts down on repair and maintennance times.


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#45 Colin

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Posted 22 August 2019 - 1257 PM

What I am saying is that the logistical reach the Israelis need is far shorter than pretty much any other Western Army. They don't do any UN or overseas deployments. In their history the longest reach of their armoured forces (barring Entebbe) has been about 225km from their border in 1973. That was 46 years ago.  


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#46 Mighty_Zuk

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Posted 23 August 2019 - 0726 AM


 

Keep in mind the maximum distance a Israel IFV is expected to operate in for the most part, is likley within 40km of the border.

Which is completely irrelevant for the vehicle's design, or the structure of its support chain.
 
It's incredibly relevant to any vehicle the Israelis build. Literately they can truck the vehicle back to the factory from the frontline within hours. A vehicle used by an expeditionary force may have very limited ability to fix or repair various items and only limited stocks of parts. The Israelis can "tune" their vehicles to the terrain and threat they know that they will face. Countries like Canada, UK or a force like the USMC may not know where they be fighting next. 

And how do you think this translates to the design of the vehicle itself?
Because I don't see any way it does.

For an Israeli armored unit, the supply of parts and ability to recover, is not as immediate as you may think.
And for an expeditionary unit, the ability to maintain their vehicles is not necessarily as bad as you suggest.

Any Israeli armored unit, can be called to fight either in the sandy and empty plains of Sinai against Egypt (low probability), in the urban environment of Gaza (very high probability), the rocky and muddy fields of southern Syria (medium probability), or the very complex Lebanese terrain of mountains, narrow passages, and semi-urban towns (high probability).

Each of them offers different logistical challenges, and the IDF is only in early stages of developing solutions to properly supply its troops in all these settings.

But if the circumstances necessitate it, the IDF possesses the capability to conduct complex logistical operations over much longer ranges than merely 40km beyond its border.

Currently it is in the process of setting up at least 10 spearhead BCTs, and 3 SF BCTs.
A typical BCT is larger than a typical brigade.
If the largest brigade in the IDF has 5 battalions, then that would be the size of your typical BCT.

3 BCTs are going to have the capability to deploy much farther than the spearheading BCTs, and will be composed of various commando and paratrooper units.

Now back to the US. What you're talking about is only relevant for the USMC, not US Army.
The typical MEU has 4 tanks, 7 LAVs, and 14 AAVs, or in other words 4 tanks, 7 IFVs, and 14 APCs. That's a total of 25 AFVs that need support and maintenance.
They are further supported by 4 artillery guns.

To supply them, they have at their disposal:
5x LCAC.
2x LCU.
7x LVSR.
30x MTVR.
4x CH-53K.
3x UH-1Y.

Of course, the heavy lift helicopters may be needed to resupply the aerial assets with engines and munitions. But in total you have approximately a shit ton of logistical assets to provide for a not too large ground force.
That is, per capita, a whole lot more than the IDF can allocate to its own forces.
And of course, just like the IDF will be setting up FOBs during fighting, so will the USMC.
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#47 Burncycle360

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Posted 24 August 2019 - 2003 PM

From what I understand the AAV-7 running gear wasn't meant for long road marches but the marines seem to make it work on the push to Baghdad

I've always found it interesting how underwelming unit sizes can be when laid out compactly...

A reinforced battalion
zghiqTj.jpg


An entire brigade... (4,000+)

TzpQTRO.jpg


Edited by Burncycle360, 24 August 2019 - 2005 PM.

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#48 WRW

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Posted 25 August 2019 - 1406 PM

any more details on the evolving IDF brigades - structure - what I read strikes me as not very revolutionary


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#49 Mighty_Zuk

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Posted 25 August 2019 - 1702 PM

https://i.postimg.cc...57120415121.jpg

Merkava 4M with some attachment on the radar, likely an experimental IR sensor to boost response time.
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#50 Mighty_Zuk

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Posted 25 August 2019 - 1725 PM

any more details on the evolving IDF brigades - structure - what I read strikes me as not very revolutionary


The IDF only publishes news when there are very significant developments. It's still in early stages.

IDF plans to have 10 regular BCTs, and 3 commando BCTs within 5-10 years, as said about a year ago.

It's not revolutionary as BCTs existed for a while, but with new evolving concepts of fighting, BCTs are becoming more relevant now than ever, and may lead to the global phasing out of much of the conventional, corp-oriented formations.
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#51 Colin

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Posted 25 August 2019 - 2333 PM

 

 

 

Keep in mind the maximum distance a Israel IFV is expected to operate in for the most part, is likley within 40km of the border.

Which is completely irrelevant for the vehicle's design, or the structure of its support chain.
 
It's incredibly relevant to any vehicle the Israelis build. Literately they can truck the vehicle back to the factory from the frontline within hours. A vehicle used by an expeditionary force may have very limited ability to fix or repair various items and only limited stocks of parts. The Israelis can "tune" their vehicles to the terrain and threat they know that they will face. Countries like Canada, UK or a force like the USMC may not know where they be fighting next. 

And how do you think this translates to the design of the vehicle itself?
Because I don't see any way it does.

For an Israeli armored unit, the supply of parts and ability to recover, is not as immediate as you may think.
And for an expeditionary unit, the ability to maintain their vehicles is not necessarily as bad as you suggest.

Any Israeli armored unit, can be called to fight either in the sandy and empty plains of Sinai against Egypt (low probability), in the urban environment of Gaza (very high probability), the rocky and muddy fields of southern Syria (medium probability), or the very complex Lebanese terrain of mountains, narrow passages, and semi-urban towns (high probability).

Each of them offers different logistical challenges, and the IDF is only in early stages of developing solutions to properly supply its troops in all these settings.

But if the circumstances necessitate it, the IDF possesses the capability to conduct complex logistical operations over much longer ranges than merely 40km beyond its border.

Currently it is in the process of setting up at least 10 spearhead BCTs, and 3 SF BCTs.
A typical BCT is larger than a typical brigade.
If the largest brigade in the IDF has 5 battalions, then that would be the size of your typical BCT.

3 BCTs are going to have the capability to deploy much farther than the spearheading BCTs, and will be composed of various commando and paratrooper units.

Now back to the US. What you're talking about is only relevant for the USMC, not US Army.
The typical MEU has 4 tanks, 7 LAVs, and 14 AAVs, or in other words 4 tanks, 7 IFVs, and 14 APCs. That's a total of 25 AFVs that need support and maintenance.
They are further supported by 4 artillery guns.

To supply them, they have at their disposal:
5x LCAC.
2x LCU.
7x LVSR.
30x MTVR.
4x CH-53K.
3x UH-1Y.

Of course, the heavy lift helicopters may be needed to resupply the aerial assets with engines and munitions. But in total you have approximately a shit ton of logistical assets to provide for a not too large ground force.
That is, per capita, a whole lot more than the IDF can allocate to its own forces.
And of course, just like the IDF will be setting up FOBs during fighting, so will the USMC.

 

They can afford certain complexities and reduce robustness to minimize costs. They can also risk a little more. A large army like the US weighs logistical changes for the weight placed on the whole system (see Sherman debate). A small military like Canada is very reluctant to adapt as the we can't afford the supply chain and maintaining multiple vehicle types overseas. 


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#52 WRW

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Posted 27 August 2019 - 0526 AM

Related questions sort of - how optimal is the MBT 120 mm for the various types of combat the IDF can anticipate


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#53 Gavin-Phillips

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Posted 27 August 2019 - 1143 AM

I feel like a total and complete idiot for asking this (so much so I actually Googled something for once and had no success there) but what is a BCT?  


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#54 Tim Sielbeck

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Posted 27 August 2019 - 1152 AM

Brigade Combat Team.
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#55 Gavin-Phillips

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Posted 27 August 2019 - 1157 AM

Brigade Combat Team.

 

Thank you.


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#56 Mr King

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Posted 28 August 2019 - 1943 PM

https://i.postimg.cc...57120415121.jpg

Merkava 4M with some attachment on the radar, likely an experimental IR sensor to boost response time.

 

What is the tube on top of the front tanks turret that looks like a ATGM tube? 


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#57 Przezdzieblo

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Posted 29 August 2019 - 0408 AM

This might be tube-launched recon drone.


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#58 Mighty_Zuk

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Posted 29 August 2019 - 0818 AM

Related questions sort of - how optimal is the MBT 120 mm for the various types of combat the IDF can anticipate


Right now, the 120mm is great. Not only for the IDF but entirety of NATO.
And I do want to remind that Israel and NATO have very close considerations for this question.

If new T-90M and T-14 are likely to appear in eastern Europe, then T-90M are also highly likely to appear in the middle east.
The T-14 also has a fairly high chance of making an appearance in the middle east once it hits critical numbers in Europe.

That's why Israel may cooperate with the Franco-German EMBT project and the US's NGCV project, in efforts to determine the next gun.
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#59 Mighty_Zuk

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Posted 29 August 2019 - 0828 AM


https://i.postimg.cc...57120415121.jpg

Merkava 4M with some attachment on the radar, likely an experimental IR sensor to boost response time.

 
What is the tube on top of the front tanks turret that looks like a ATGM tube? 

For placement of misfired rounds.
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#60 Mr King

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Posted 29 August 2019 - 1550 PM

Ah yes, thank you, I think this was answered before, but I could not remember. 


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