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#1621 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 30 August 2019 - 0223 AM

Duncan Sandy's, is that you? :D

https://www.aerosoci...-of-the-sandys/

SANDYS: THE MISSILE PERSPECTIVE
With no more manned interceptor aircraft, it would fall to batteries of ramjet and rocket-powered surface-to-air
missiles to protect Britain’s airspace, despite the immense challenges facing the boffins tasked with developing
a brand new method of air-defence with largely unfamiliar technology. Enter the Stage Plan and the dawn of
Britain’s missile era, which saw the introduction of the Bloodhound and Thunderbird SAMs, as well as several
missiles which never left the drawing board.
 

 

Well it didnt work then, but there is no reason why it wouldnt work now. As we seem to be on the dawn of hybrid jet/rocket engines, it may be hypersonic vehicles are on the brink of becoming a lot more common.


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#1622 KV7

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Posted 30 August 2019 - 1340 PM

YJ-26, Chinese VHF/UHF search radar:

 

yj26.jpg
 


Edited by KV7, 01 September 2019 - 0019 AM.

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#1623 KV7

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Posted 30 August 2019 - 1343 PM

YJ-27 A, a large VHF search radar:

1_SOS4_DanKatz-AWST.JPG


Edited by KV7, 30 August 2019 - 1345 PM.

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#1624 Chris Werb

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Posted 31 August 2019 - 1946 PM

Duncan Sandy's, is that you? :D

https://www.aerosoci...-of-the-sandys/

SANDYS: THE MISSILE PERSPECTIVE
With no more manned interceptor aircraft, it would fall to batteries of ramjet and rocket-powered surface-to-air
missiles to protect Britain’s airspace, despite the immense challenges facing the boffins tasked with developing
a brand new method of air-defence with largely unfamiliar technology. Enter the Stage Plan and the dawn of
Britain’s missile era, which saw the introduction of the Bloodhound and Thunderbird SAMs, as well as several
missiles which never left the drawing board.
 

 

Well it didnt work then, but there is no reason why it wouldnt work now. As we seem to be on the dawn of hybrid jet/rocket engines, it may be hypersonic vehicles are on the brink of becoming a lot more common.

 

The whole thing fell flat on its face for a lot of obvious reasons, but is obviously a lot more doable now {technologically, if perhaps not in terms of national will}.  I can see directed energy weapons finally starting to make a significant contribution too.  I still think you will need some manned fighters for the foreseeable future though, if only to do airspace policing. 


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#1625 DB

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Posted 31 August 2019 - 2004 PM

Drone swarms overwhelm current point defence systems in the short term, but DEWs to deal with those will largely be RF. Lasers for dealing with the next size up, I feel.

By short term I mean within a weapon system generation or so, less than 20 years for sure.
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#1626 KV7

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Posted 01 September 2019 - 0023 AM

Drone swarms overwhelm current point defence systems in the short term, but DEWs to deal with those will largely be RF. Lasers for dealing with the next size up, I feel.

By short term I mean within a weapon system generation or so, less than 20 years for sure.

By order or introduction:

(1) recon

(2) strike

(3) loyal wingman concept

(4) Unmanned Interceptors etc. as part of the low in the low-high mix.

(5) fully unmanned strike and fighter arm.


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#1627 Chris Werb

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Posted 03 September 2019 - 0932 AM

Drone swarms overwhelm current point defence systems in the short term, but DEWs to deal with those will largely be RF. Lasers for dealing with the next size up, I feel.

By short term I mean within a weapon system generation or so, less than 20 years for sure.

 

Drones, meaning remote controlled, at least to an extent, would be vulnerable to RF, although, as you know (i'm not the electronics expert here :) ), there are ways round that to a certain extent using directional antenna, terrain masking, Faraday cage like screening/isolation etc.. Autonomous weapons externally resembling current drones, could rely on an INS, terrain mapping/recognition and terminal image recognition homing, LIDAR or even MMW or a combination thereof (this would be more practical for systems delivered by long range missiles or aircraft or larger drones for example). It's not hard to imagine a missile delivering a bunch of electric, prop driven munitions, like the current switchblade, with an image recognition sensor that will detect and prioritise aircraft, and an algorithm (like Brimstone), or even a counter, to ensure they don't all go after the same target. They could also overwhelm directed energy weapons (RF or laser) with sheer numbers. Think something like this:


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#1628 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 03 September 2019 - 0942 AM

The difficulty I have is envisaging a drone that is autonomous that can engage enemy aircraft. OK, so to an extent Sams do that already, but it still requires a human in the loop to do all the hard work for it. Air combat has too many dynamics in it for a robot to tackle it convincingly. It would take years of exercises before you had something that was consistent I think.

 

For ground attack, yes, its clearly the way forward.


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#1629 KV7

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Posted 03 September 2019 - 1009 AM

The difficulty I have is envisaging a drone that is autonomous that can engage enemy aircraft. OK, so to an extent Sams do that already, but it still requires a human in the loop to do all the hard work for it. Air combat has too many dynamics in it for a robot to tackle it convincingly. It would take years of exercises before you had something that was consistent I think.

 

For ground attack, yes, its clearly the way forward
 

Machine learning is powerful enough to solve this problem. You will train the bots on billions of engagements in order to optimise the performance, eg as in AlphaZero.

 


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#1630 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 03 September 2019 - 1017 AM

Or get a lot of nerds to play DCS incessantly. :)
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#1631 Josh

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Posted 03 September 2019 - 1052 AM

 

Drone swarms overwhelm current point defence systems in the short term, but DEWs to deal with those will largely be RF. Lasers for dealing with the next size up, I feel.

By short term I mean within a weapon system generation or so, less than 20 years for sure.

 

Drones, meaning remote controlled, at least to an extent, would be vulnerable to RF, although, as you know (i'm not the electronics expert here :) ), there are ways round that to a certain extent using directional antenna, terrain masking, Faraday cage like screening/isolation etc.. Autonomous weapons externally resembling current drones, could rely on an INS, terrain mapping/recognition and terminal image recognition homing, LIDAR or even MMW or a combination thereof (this would be more practical for systems delivered by long range missiles or aircraft or larger drones for example). It's not hard to imagine a missile delivering a bunch of electric, prop driven munitions, like the current switchblade, with an image recognition sensor that will detect and prioritise aircraft, and an algorithm (like Brimstone), or even a counter, to ensure they don't all go after the same target. They could also overwhelm directed energy weapons (RF or laser) with sheer numbers. Think something like this:

 

 

Not sure how useful that particular size would really be, but if nothing else it probably could function more or less like smart persistent chaff. The USAF and US Army are cooporating on a directed HPM weapon that instead of jamming drones would fry them, or at least destroy their ability to communicate. I think this a more useful path for anti drone tech than lasers for small civilian drones or military mirco UAVs.


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#1632 GARGEAN

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Posted 03 September 2019 - 1134 AM

Machine learning is powerful enough to solve this problem. You will train the bots on billions of engagements in order to optimise the performance, eg as in AlphaZero.

 

 

It's not that easy sadly. Fully realistic imitation of fighting conditions is hard even by today standarts.


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#1633 KV7

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Posted 03 September 2019 - 1951 PM

Or get a lot of nerds to play DCS incessantly. :)

Expect a call soon.


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#1634 KV7

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Posted 03 September 2019 - 1954 PM

 

Machine learning is powerful enough to solve this problem. You will train the bots on billions of engagements in order to optimise the performance, eg as in AlphaZero.

 

 

It's not that easy sadly. Fully realistic imitation of fighting conditions is hard even by today standarts.

 

Yes, it will be optimised to fight in the lower fidelity (and hence feasible) simulation. But the loss of information may not be very important.


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#1635 DB

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Posted 04 September 2019 - 1924 PM

Yes, Chris - hence my suggestion that RF DEW would likely be the counter to (small) drones. The smaller they are, the less effectively they can be protected against direct RF attack.

I think people seem a little but stuck on the idea that remote control is necessary.

If you don't care much about target discrimination, then you can drop your drones into an area and have them as suicide against "stuff" you've taught their tiny minds to attack.

Why would you attack planes with them? You just pass them by and do whatever you want. You can deal with planes using traditional means.

Countrr-drone swarms, maybe. Fighting like with like. But as I said, directed RF to kill their electronics rather than interrupt datalinks they don't have.
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#1636 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 06 September 2019 - 0142 AM

Yes, Chris - hence my suggestion that RF DEW would likely be the counter to (small) drones. The smaller they are, the less effectively they can be protected against direct RF attack.

I think people seem a little but stuck on the idea that remote control is necessary.

If you don't care much about target discrimination, then you can drop your drones into an area and have them as suicide against "stuff" you've taught their tiny minds to attack.

Why would you attack planes with them? You just pass them by and do whatever you want. You can deal with planes using traditional means.

Countrr-drone swarms, maybe. Fighting like with like. But as I said, directed RF to kill their electronics rather than interrupt datalinks they don't have.

 

Well you have to fly over enemy territory to get at them for one thing. Whats the point of having a drone force to make it impossible for pilots to be captured, if you are sending potential Scott O Grady's over enemy territory to be shot at?

 

Granted with stealth aircraft is much reduced. But as we saw with the F117 shootdown, its not eliminated. And I think inevitably as both sides start using stealth aircraft, combat ranges are going to be shorter, and we may be back in dogfight territory again.


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#1637 Mr King

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Posted 07 September 2019 - 1822 PM

U.S. Air Force Next-Generation B-21 Stealth Bomber Will Likely Have Air-to-Air Defense Capabilities

 

The U.S. Air Force’s new Next-Generation Stealth Bomber, the B-21 Raider, will likely have air-to-air defense capabilities, just like modern fighter jets.
 
In Air Force Magazine, Pacific Air Forces Director of Air and Cyber Operations Maj. Gen Scott L. Pleus confirmed that next-generation bomber will have new capabilities for self-defense during flight.
 
Maj. Gen Scott L. Pleus exposed details of new equipment and new concepts in order to sustain Air Force’s air superiority in the decades to come, adding that “a B-21 that also has air-to-air capabilities”.
 
On November 18, 2018, Force announced Tinker and Edwards Base will test, maintain the new B-21 stealth bomber.
 
on May 24, 2019 Satellite imagery Spotted new Hangars Constructed At Edwards Air Force Base Ahead Of B-21 Raider’s Arrival.
 
Previously, the Air Force’s leaders also said that new B-21 Raider is a long-range and highly-survivable aircraft capable of penetrating air defenses and conducting a range of critical missions.
 
Sources familiar with the development of next-generation bomber said the B-21 Raider would be fitted with advanced radar that will be provided air-to-air capabilities. For air-to-air defense, the new bomber also would be added capability to carry air-to-air missiles.
 
The B-21 Raider program has a mature and stable design and is now transitioning to the manufacturing development of the first test aircraft. Northrop Grumman is utilizing its Melbourne facility for the design and development of the B-21 Raider.
 
The first B-21 is expected to be delivered in the mid-2020s.

​

 

 

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#1638 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 0134 AM

Someone should tell Dale Brown. :D


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#1639 Mr King

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Posted 10 September 2019 - 1814 PM

2a2bdfadvsl31.jpg​


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#1640 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 11 September 2019 - 0230 AM

The YF23 may prove the basis for a new Japanese Stealth Fighter.

https://defensemaven...VEyTXYJpXUx0ug/


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