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Future Uk Infantry Rifle


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#1 Dawes

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Posted 04 July 2018 - 1240 PM

Well, it's 2018. Is the UK giving any thought as to it's L85 series rifle replacement?


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#2 Dawes

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Posted 04 July 2018 - 1246 PM

Oops, wrong forum. Mods kindly move.


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#3 Chris Werb

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Posted 04 July 2018 - 1250 PM

Oops, wrong forum. Mods kindly move.

 

No problem :)


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#4 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 04 July 2018 - 1312 PM

In line with Brexit, is it too much to hope for a return to rule .303?


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#5 Dawes

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Posted 04 July 2018 - 1316 PM

Will any future rifle include provision for mounting a bayonet, or has that requirement seen it's day?


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#6 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 04 July 2018 - 1319 PM

I think it will have a bayonet. It actually proved of some value in Iraq, with at least one bayonet charge being order. Battle of Danny Boy I think it might been.


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#7 TonyE

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Posted 04 July 2018 - 1622 PM

Propably will just go M4 clone like everyone else. :(


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#8 Chris Werb

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Posted 04 July 2018 - 1659 PM

Will any future rifle include provision for mounting a bayonet, or has that requirement seen it's day?


Unless things have changed, only two members of a rifle section currently have a weapon that will take a bayonet.
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#9 Panzermann

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Posted 04 July 2018 - 1739 PM

In line with Brexit, is it too much to hope for a return to rule .303?

 
Newfangled humbug I say! The .577/450 rules the battlefield!

 

 

 

more seriously, no the British Army has put no thought whatsover towards a future rifle. At the moment part of the SA80 is being overhauled and brought to A3 standard. In a few years the bureaucrats will be absolutely surprised by the finding that they actually need a new rifle because polished turd is still a turd. And they will proceed to buy something off the shelf in knee jerk in homeopathic numbers.

 

I bet on chinese T97 in 5,56 just to be another awkward rifle.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Will any future rifle include provision for mounting a bayonet, or has that requirement seen it's day?


Unless things have changed, only two members of a rifle section currently have a weapon that will take a bayonet.

 

 

True. On the battlefield the bayonets days are long long gone. And you cannot mount them on most weapons anymore anyway.

 

The SA80 has a socket bayonet, so should a future rifle have a 22 mm flashhider as per NATO norms, then it should fit the new boomstick as well. but apart from the Queen's birthday and such there is not much need for one anyway.


Edited by Panzermann, 04 July 2018 - 1744 PM.

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#10 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 05 July 2018 - 0212 AM

You know, I have to disagree there. I think the bayonet is still useful in close quarters. I mean yeah, as more nations put body armour on their soldiers, its going to degrade in usefulness. OTOH, reading of the Falklands, one participant talked with some feeling of bayoneting an Argentine conscript in the face. There isnt much body armour will do about that.

 

Of course, as weapons get shorter, you are getting into the realms of diminishing returns. It was clearly more viable on the end of an SLR.


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#11 lastdingo

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Posted 05 July 2018 - 0256 AM

Bayonets are relevant for crowd control only - civilians and POWs.

You can use a rifle as a club or an entrenching tool as an axe if you absolutely need to kill without a shot.

 

The dead weight should be saved.


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#12 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 05 July 2018 - 0303 AM

I am struck at the remarkable lack of interest of the modern British Army on campaign. I mean our politicians, I can understand it, but not anyone better read.

 

http://www.businessi...ct-2012-10?IR=T

 

And as seen, it happened in Afghanistan too.

 

http://www.businessi...lor-2012-9?IR=T

 

 

If you have to get danger close and you have just emptied your mag, you have a choice of whether to run away or use a rock. Neither are good options. Even if you dont mix it, its part of the attack ethos in British Army training. Its possible to mock that as just modern pantalon rouge style thinking, the problem is it seems to keep working.


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#13 DougRichards

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Posted 05 July 2018 - 0315 AM

Give each squaddie a 12" long seax if they need a cutting weapon.  (or even better, a gladius). If the other side isn't mounting bayonets then you should not need a longer bayonet to outreach them.  If it is for terror value:  heavy machete would be nice.


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#14 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 05 July 2018 - 0347 AM

Thats right, its a terror weapon. Same as the Gurkha knife once was, and in some respects still is. And yes, its clearly of limited value today, but if you have an empty weapon its one more option. Mounting it is also saying something to the enemy, ie, we are going to get close to you and stick you with a knife. Which as a form of making the enemy break before you have to do so, has proven to be highly effective, particularly among poorly disciplined troops or insurgents.

 

If you dont have a bayonet, it argues for carrying a sidearm as a backup, and thats going to cost even more weight, not to mention an increased cost. Its either that or beat someone to death with your weapon, which doesnt strike me as a much better option than a rock.


Edited by Stuart Galbraith, 05 July 2018 - 0352 AM.

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#15 DougRichards

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Posted 05 July 2018 - 0409 AM

Thats right, its a terror weapon. Same as the Gurkha knife once was, and in some respects still is. And yes, its clearly of limited value today, but if you have an empty weapon its one more option. Mounting it is also saying something to the enemy, ie, we are going to get close to you and stick you with a knife. Which as a form of making the enemy break before you have to do so, has proven to be highly effective, particularly among poorly disciplined troops or insurgents.

 

If you dont have a bayonet, it argues for carrying a sidearm as a backup, and thats going to cost even more weight, not to mention an increased cost. Its either that or beat someone to death with your weapon, which doesnt strike me as a much better option than a rock.

 

Well at Inkerman (5 Nov 1854) - maybe one last harrah of the bayonet: British and Russians threw stones at each other at one stage. 

 

Given what is here:

 

https://books.google...bayonet&f=false

 

Give Scottish regiments rifles capable of taking a bayonet, let the rest of the English 'Foreign Legion' (the Welsh and the Irish) follow those of England and supply them with, well, rocks.

 

(The reference to the 'foreign legion' goes back to at least the film 'They Were Not Divided' (1950) that Capt Geoffrey Winnington-Ball always wanted to get a copy of, but that is now available for all on youtube,)


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#16 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 05 July 2018 - 0435 AM

Id agree entirely with what is said there. 'It is the threat of the bayonet and the sight of the point that usually does the work'. Exactly. If you have to stick someone with it, much of the value of it has passed.

 

There was an interesting documentary on about British weapons throughout history. And they noted an interesting point, that in WW1 we had actually gone back to weapons we had used in the 100 years war. Not least a mace, or pieces of wood with nails stuck through them. Its very fashionable to believe that with technology, we can kill enemies form miles away. In urban situations, Fallujah, or any battle we saw during WW2, such impressions turned out to be erroneous. It may yet happen again.

 

Scots are not different from any other British Regiment. They are just as good as one another. Ive all due credit for how good the Scots fight, but not one of them was ever superior to the 28th or 61st Regiments of Foot. Or for that matter, the Connaught Rangers, whom never got anything like the credit the Scots have (rightly) acquired.


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#17 lastdingo

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Posted 05 July 2018 - 0513 AM

The bayonet was from a time when fire reduced and demoralised the defender's closed order formation prior to the last 30...60 m "hurrah!" charge.

Then either a final defender's salvo broke up the assault and the attackers fled or the defenders fled in face of the charge. There was very, very rarely an actual bayonet mass melee in the 18th and 19th centuries.

 

They didn't have such effect in the First World War, for the men in trenches didn't have much of an option to run. Hence the return to better melee weapons than an incredibly unwieldy short spear (rifle with bayonet): Mace, dagger, entrenching tool/axe.

 

Today the way to go is to have some rounds left (and in worst case use the rifle as club or quarterstaff), period. That shouldn't be too hard given that hardly any magazine is smaller than 30 rds.

 

 

The 'scary' effect of the bayonet is only of use against civilians and POWs, and even then it's difficult to get its employment right if the other side is determined..


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#18 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 05 July 2018 - 0529 AM

Well you have to define what is a civilian. Because there is plenty of evidence of civilians armed to the teeth fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan against British soldiers. Against well trained troops, agreed, its going to be less useful. But then you probably are rarely going to be doing bayonet charges against well trained, disciplined troops anyway.

 

Personally I dont know what the big deal is. Its cheap, it works, its reuseable. If it doesnt work, you just shoot them. Simples.


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#19 DougRichards

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Posted 05 July 2018 - 0626 AM

The bayonet was from a time when fire reduced and demoralised the defender's closed order formation prior to the last 30...60 m "hurrah!" charge.

Then either a final defender's salvo broke up the assault and the attackers fled or the defenders fled in face of the charge. There was very, very rarely an actual bayonet mass melee in the 18th and 19th centuries.

 

They didn't have such effect in the First World War, for the men in trenches didn't have much of an option to run. Hence the return to better melee weapons than an incredibly unwieldy short spear (rifle with bayonet): Mace, dagger, entrenching tool/axe.

 

Today the way to go is to have some rounds left (and in worst case use the rifle as club or quarterstaff), period. That shouldn't be too hard given that hardly any magazine is smaller than 30 rds.

 

 

The 'scary' effect of the bayonet is only of use against civilians and POWs, and even then it's difficult to get its employment right if the other side is determined..

 

You forget

 

https://en.wikipedia..._of_42nd_Street

 

probably the last (ad hoc) 'brigade' sized bayonet charge.  The ANZAC tradition lived on.


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#20 lastdingo

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Posted 05 July 2018 - 0637 AM

Well you have to define what is a civilian. Because there is plenty of evidence of civilians armed to the teeth fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan against British soldiers. Against well trained troops, agreed, its going to be less useful. But then you probably are rarely going to be doing bayonet charges against well trained, disciplined troops anyway.

 

Personally I dont know what the big deal is. Its cheap, it works, its reuseable. If it doesnt work, you just shoot them. Simples.

 

Carry around a rifleman's full gear for 10 km.

Then, convinced that it's too heavy, drop all the stuff, sort it, look at what can be lightened or left behind.

The bayonet will be left behind, guaranteed.


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