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MidwayŚ77 Years Ago, Today.


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#181 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 18 June 2019 - 0211 AM

How many US Warships did Japanese submarines account for? Ive only heard of relatively few accounts (and one of those was the abortive midget attack on Sydney).


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#182 MiloMorai

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Posted 18 June 2019 - 0238 AM

One was USS Corvina the only known instance of a US submarine being sunk by a Japanese submarine, sunk by Japanese submarine I-176.


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#183 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 18 June 2019 - 0245 AM

Im guessing that was a partial influence for Bungo Pete in 'Run Silent Run Deep'. Thanks, not heard of that one.


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#184 DougRichards

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Posted 18 June 2019 - 0301 AM

How many US Warships did Japanese submarines account for? Ive only heard of relatively few accounts (and one of those was the abortive midget attack on Sydney).

 

wiki

 

Meanwhile, salvage efforts on Yorktown were encouraging, and she was taken in tow by USS Vireo. In the late afternoon of 6 June, the Japanese submarine I-168, which had managed to slip through the cordon of destroyers (possibly because of the large amount of debris in the water), fired a salvo of torpedoes, two of which struck Yorktown. There were few casualties aboard, since most of the crew had already been evacuated, but a third torpedo from this salvo struck the destroyer USS Hammann, which had been providing auxiliary power to Yorktown. Hammann broke in two and sank with the loss of 80 lives, mostly because her own depth charges exploded. With further salvage efforts deemed hopeless, the remaining repair crews were evacuated from Yorktown, which sank just after 05:00 on 7 June.

 

--------

 

That attack by midgets in Sydney Harbour accounted for one harbour ferry that was being used as an accommodation ship.  Not by any stretch of the imagination was the Kuttabul a warship.


Edited by DougRichards, 18 June 2019 - 0305 AM.

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#185 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 18 June 2019 - 0522 AM

Doug, there was a REALLY good article in After the Battle about 25 years ago on the Sydney attack thats well worth searching out if you can find it. It struck me all the effort of the Japanese to pull off a Prien style spectacular, and all they managed to do was blow an old Harbour ferry in half.

 

Yes, fair one on the Yorktown. But warships were all things the Americans could replace. They certainly DID attack British merchant ships in the indian ocean, since one of them resulted in a war crime so horrific I prefer not to reflect on it. But as far as providing a useful contribution to the war effort, Its difficult to credit the Japanese Submarine arm as doing anything comparable to the British or American (Or German) Navies in that period. And I think that is largely because they were too fleet centric in doctrine.

 

Perhaps if they had sunk the Indianapolis BEFORE delivering the bomb we might view it differently.


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#186 JasonJ

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Posted 18 June 2019 - 0539 AM

I agree that overall, Japanese submarine contribution was not so good, especially considering how many were lost. But one other notable example was USS Wasp.
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#187 Rick

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Posted 18 June 2019 - 0555 AM

How many US Warships did Japanese submarines account for? Ive only heard of relatively few accounts (and one of those was the abortive midget attack on Sydney).

https://en.wikipedia...nese_submarines

 

U.S.S. Saratoga was damaged twice by Japanese submarines on two separate occasions. On both occasions the single torpedo hits damaged her turbo-electric drive, IIRC, via shock damage,a possible design weakness noted by the Royal Navy when, I can't remember the name, an officer or warship designer toured the vessel.

 

The I-26 sunk the Wasp and a destroyer( IIRC the O'Brian), and damaged the North Carolina with a single salvo of six torpedoes. 


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#188 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 18 June 2019 - 0556 AM

I dont think it was all their fault. All the IJN was developed in the ambition for a large fleet action, to which Japanese Submarines (as happened in many cases with US Fleet Submarines, the role they were designed for) was to keep an eye on the enemy fleet, and attrit it. That was a role of the I400 class, which I find bizarre and yet surprisingly cheering machines. They were about the few aircraft carrying submarines that might have proven actually useful.


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#189 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 18 June 2019 - 0558 AM

 

How many US Warships did Japanese submarines account for? Ive only heard of relatively few accounts (and one of those was the abortive midget attack on Sydney).

https://en.wikipedia...nese_submarines

 

U.S.S. Saratoga was damaged twice by Japanese submarines on two separate occasions. On both occasions the single torpedo hits damaged her turbo-electric drive, IIRC, via shock damage,a possible design weakness noted by the Royal Navy when, I can't remember the name, an officer or warship designer toured the vessel.

 

The I-26 sunk the Wasp and a destroyer( IIRC the O'Brian), and damaged the North Carolina with a single salvo of six torpedoes. 

 

 

Ok, thats a pretty fair range of attacks, i should give them more credit then.


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#190 Rick

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Posted 18 June 2019 - 0600 AM

Doug, there was a REALLY good article in After the Battle about 25 years ago on the Sydney attack thats well worth searching out if you can find it. It struck me all the effort of the Japanese to pull off a Prien style spectacular, and all they managed to do was blow an old Harbour ferry in half.

 

Yes, fair one on the Yorktown. But warships were all things the Americans could replace. They certainly DID attack British merchant ships in the indian ocean, since one of them resulted in a war crime so horrific I prefer not to reflect on it. But as far as providing a useful contribution to the war effort, Its difficult to credit the Japanese Submarine arm as doing anything comparable to the British or American (Or German) Navies in that period. And I think that is largely because they were too fleet centric in doctrine.

 

Perhaps if they had sunk the Indianapolis BEFORE delivering the bomb we might view it differently.

Do give the IJN submarine force its due, during the later half of 1942 it did sink two aircraft carriers(Yorktown and Wasp) and damaged the Saratoga twice which took it out of action on both occasions. The North Carolina was damaged in 1942 also.


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#191 shep854

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Posted 18 June 2019 - 0817 AM

Wasp was a right fair kill, since she was fully operational when hit.  I had always wondered how one hit (on two separate occasions) caused Saratoga such distress.


Edited by shep854, 18 June 2019 - 0817 AM.

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#192 Harold Jones

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Posted 18 June 2019 - 0850 AM

Japanese subs also accounted for USS Juneau and the Indianapolis.  


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#193 Nobu

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Posted 18 June 2019 - 1142 AM

The I-26 sunk the Wasp and a destroyer( IIRC the O'Brian), and damaged the North Carolina with a single salvo of six torpedoes.

 

That was the work of Takahazu Kinashi's I-19.

 

Kinashi made his way to Berlin by way of the submarine pens at Lorient in 1944, where he received the Iron Cross.


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#194 RETAC21

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Posted 18 June 2019 - 1152 AM

I agree that overall, Japanese submarine contribution was not so good, especially considering how many were lost. But one other notable example was USS Wasp.

 

Given their number (remember they never had 300 subs at the same time like the Kriegsmarine) it was what was to be expected. Trying to put up a campaign against enemy commerce with so few modern subs would be folly, given they also lacked means of reconnaissance.


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#195 Rick

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Posted 18 June 2019 - 1628 PM

The I-26 sunk the Wasp and a destroyer( IIRC the O'Brian), and damaged the North Carolina with a single salvo of six torpedoes.

 

That was the work of Takahazu Kinashi's I-19.

 

Kinashi made his way to Berlin by way of the submarine pens at Lorient in 1944, where he received the Iron Cross.

Your right! Thank you for the correction.


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#196 Rick

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Posted 18 June 2019 - 1630 PM

 

I agree that overall, Japanese submarine contribution was not so good, especially considering how many were lost. But one other notable example was USS Wasp.

 

Given their number (remember they never had 300 subs at the same time like the Kriegsmarine) it was what was to be expected. Trying to put up a campaign against enemy commerce with so few modern subs would be folly, given they also lacked means of reconnaissance.

 

IJN submarine doctrine was to target warships, not merchant ships. 


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#197 Brian Kennedy

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Posted 18 June 2019 - 1755 PM

 

 

I agree that overall, Japanese submarine contribution was not so good, especially considering how many were lost. But one other notable example was USS Wasp.

 

Given their number (remember they never had 300 subs at the same time like the Kriegsmarine) it was what was to be expected. Trying to put up a campaign against enemy commerce with so few modern subs would be folly, given they also lacked means of reconnaissance.

 

IJN submarine doctrine was to target warships, not merchant ships. 

 

 

Which I guess is defensible, and they were fairly successful at it, but as an island nation more dependent on imports than even the UK, their neglect of ASW was practically criminal.


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#198 Brian Kennedy

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Posted 18 June 2019 - 1818 PM

BTW if anybody's interested I'd strongly recommend Refighting the Pacific War (it's on Kindle). A bunch of US military historians go over various alternate outcomes and vehemently disagree with each other. :)


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#199 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 19 June 2019 - 0207 AM

 

 

I agree that overall, Japanese submarine contribution was not so good, especially considering how many were lost. But one other notable example was USS Wasp.

 

Given their number (remember they never had 300 subs at the same time like the Kriegsmarine) it was what was to be expected. Trying to put up a campaign against enemy commerce with so few modern subs would be folly, given they also lacked means of reconnaissance.

 

IJN submarine doctrine was to target warships, not merchant ships. 

 

 

Which is where it where wrong I feel.

 

I remember reading of an incident where a US Merchant ship (or maybe two) were attacked off the US West Coast in the couple of months after Pearl Harbour (maybe they were looking for Hollywood..). The point was, there was some hysteria caused by it. Added to the hysteria of the great LA Air Battle, its possible to think that anenthusiastic submarine off the West coast (much as the Germans did off the East coast with Drumbeat) would have had significant propaganda potential. In fact, it might have handicapped operations in the wider pacific as the public demanded the US Navy got the Western seaboard under control.

 

Its not as if the Japanese didnt recognise the value of propaganda targets. After all, the Sydney operation was a success at that, if nothing else. But the motivation to launch a concerted unrestricted battle against merchants never happened, and it might have given them significant opportunities. It would certainly have had the USN operating on the back foot a bit longer.

 

This was interesting. Clearly there was a campaign, but not much in the way of results for 9 boats. Compare and contrast with the absolute murder that Drumbeat had for similar numbers of boats, and clearly something was going wrong.

 

https://www.historyn...ine-in-1941.htm


Edited by Stuart Galbraith, 19 June 2019 - 0211 AM.

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#200 Corinthian

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Posted 19 June 2019 - 0345 AM

 

Re Ken, I met Saburo Sakai when I was a kid. A total gentleman and I wish we had him on our side.

Your a lucky man! I am always somewhat amazed on how the U.S. are now allies with former enemies within, historically imo, a short period of time

 

 

We have to thank the commies for that.


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