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#15461 seahawk

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Posted 04 December 2019 - 1221 PM

 

 

Chlorine gas made some tactical sense in conjunction with air strikes due to its effect on dug in forces.  Sarin gas for the regime made no sense whatever.  

 

And chlorine as a weapon is easy to get in the region as it is still the most common method for water purification.

 

 

I tend to believe reports of SAA chlorine use, I tend not to believe reports of Sarin use.  

 

 

I would believe that is was used in the conflict, maybe by both sides, maybe not. That is the problem if you have chlorine, you put it in an open barrel, put a fan behind and blow it in the direction of an underground bunker, as you have your casualties.


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#15462 JWB

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Posted 04 December 2019 - 1256 PM

 

 

Carpet can into fly.

Question is: can carpet into space?
Anyway, I'll just quote Assad (from my memory) on the chemical issue: Militarily, using chemical weapons only makes sense if you are losing. In advancement, it makes no sense at all.
So, no SHTF moment for SAA for quite a long time means no chems for them murderate terrorists West seems so fond of.

Look at it from the perspective of how Saddam used chemical weapons, for pacification, it makes perfect sense. There is also the point that few of these weapons were persistent.

Look at it from the rebels point of view. They kill their own people once, twice, to get American involvement, I could believe it. Something like a dozen times and over 6 years later, I dont. It makes no bloody sense atall.

 

More like 80.

https://en.wikipedia...yrian_Civil_War


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#15463 glenn239

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Posted 04 December 2019 - 1423 PM

 

 

 

Chlorine gas made some tactical sense in conjunction with air strikes due to its effect on dug in forces.  Sarin gas for the regime made no sense whatever.  

 

And chlorine as a weapon is easy to get in the region as it is still the most common method for water purification.

 

 

I tend to believe reports of SAA chlorine use, I tend not to believe reports of Sarin use.  

 

 

I would believe that is was used in the conflict, maybe by both sides, maybe not. That is the problem if you have chlorine, you put it in an open barrel, put a fan behind and blow it in the direction of an underground bunker, as you have your casualties.

 

 

Yep, that's why I believe reports the SAA uses chlorine, because it can seep into underground bunkers that regular munitions might have difficulty reaching.  Combined arms effect.  


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#15464 glenn239

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Posted 04 December 2019 - 1552 PM

During the November 20 airstrike on Syria, the IAF destroyed another Pantsir:

ojbNf3K.jpg

 

One of the units lost was an S2 according to a report today.  Tactics appear to be to run them out of missiles after which they are defenseless.  Their cannons seems to be less useful for self defense than I would have guessed.


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#15465 Nobu

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Posted 05 December 2019 - 1252 PM

The IAF may very well be the most experienced provider of solutions for defended airspace in the world right now. 


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#15466 bojan

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Posted 05 December 2019 - 1503 PM

There is no Pantsir S2 in the wild. It is all S1somethingsomething, and Syria only had base S1.

Tactics work because poorly prepared positions and not moving after firing.


Edited by bojan, 05 December 2019 - 1503 PM.

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#15467 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 05 December 2019 - 1601 PM

Carpet can into fly.

Question is: can carpet into space?Anyway, I'll just quote Assad (from my memory) on the chemical issue: Militarily, using chemical weapons only makes sense if you are losing. In advancement, it makes no sense at all.So, no SHTF moment for SAA for quite a long time means no chems for them murderate terrorists West seems so fond of.
Look at it from the perspective of how Saddam used chemical weapons, for pacification, it makes perfect sense. There is also the point that few of these weapons were persistent.Look at it from the rebels point of view. They kill their own people once, twice, to get American involvement, I could believe it. Something like a dozen times and over 6 years later, I dont. It makes no bloody sense atall.
More like 80.https://en.wikipedia...yrian_Civil_War


There you go, it's far more often than even I thought.
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#15468 glenn239

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Posted 05 December 2019 - 1603 PM

There is no Pantsir S2 in the wild. It is all S1somethingsomething, and Syria only had base S1.

Tactics work because poorly prepared positions and not moving after firing.

 

Noted.  Still, I'm not seeing evidence overall the cannons are particularly effective in any role, and the missile loadout seems too small.  Also not seeing much in the way of decoys?


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#15469 Colin

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Posted 05 December 2019 - 2316 PM

Pantsir was for the mobile tactical battlefield as I recall fighting both fast air and attack helicopters. It is supposed to be the forward part of the defense system with other systems providing protection for them from further back.


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#15470 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 06 December 2019 - 0347 AM

Re the Douma report that was posted much earlier as an example of the OPCW ignoring employee's concerns. As Bellingcat points out, it actually proves the opposite.

 

https://www.bellingc...-crucial-facts/

Although this letter appears to be at least superficially damaging to the OPCW, after reading the actual reports published by the OPCW it is clear that this letter is outdated and inapplicable to the final Douma report. 

The letter refers to a “redacted report” that was either not published or was heavily updated before it became the final version of  the report. The issues raised in the letter appear to have either been addressed with further work and research, or changed to reflect the concerns of the employee who wrote the letter. 

The fact that the redacted report stated it was “likely” the cylinders were the source of the chlorine or reactive chlorine-containing chemical, while the final report said it was “possible that the cylinders were the source of the substances containing reactive chlorine” is significant. It demonstrates that the OPCW in fact downgraded their confidence in their conclusions in order to include the doubts raised by the author of the letter.

Based on this analysis, it is clear that WikiLeaks, the Daily Mail, La Repubblica, and Stundin have failed to understand the context of this letter and the final Douma report. 

If the people covering this story had actually taken the time to read the letter and the FFM reports, they may well have chosen to publicize it in a very different manner.

 

 

Wikileaks misleading people? How extraordinary, ive never seen such a thing before. :)

 

 

The troll effort at disinformation following the post is also fairly instructive. We have seen very similar here on this grate site.


Edited by Stuart Galbraith, 06 December 2019 - 0358 AM.

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#15471 KV7

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Posted 06 December 2019 - 0509 AM

Pantsir was for the mobile tactical battlefield as I recall fighting both fast air and attack helicopters. It is supposed to be the forward part of the defense system with other systems providing protection for them from further back.


Isn't it a bit too lightly protected for that role ? The standard story seem to be that it was designed to provide point defense of area SAM batteries.


Edited by KV7, 06 December 2019 - 0510 AM.

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#15472 bojan

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Posted 06 December 2019 - 0905 AM

Pantsir is for saving important assets on move, mainly other AD systems.

Tor and Tunguska were for protecting units on march, Tor being more capable and higher in the chan.

 

Had the Yugoslavia used AD assets way Syrians are using them we would have ran out of anything by the end of first week. No evidence of seriously prepared firing positions, reserve positions and shelters for launchers, launchers kept in the same position for days, no attempt on masking, no attempt on counter-SEAD attempts (decoy targets, decoy radar emitters, IR beacons + all 3 combined), no attempt to use masking smoke (surprisingly effective in 1999). Picknick, not a war.


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#15473 Nobu

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Posted 06 December 2019 - 1517 PM

The IAF would probably benefit and prefer the showing of more Syrian competence, as it is in testing mode itself.


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