Jump to content


Photo

Why Is Britain Broke?

dont have any money?

  • Please log in to reply
119 replies to this topic

#21 Brian Kennedy

Brian Kennedy

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 5,276 posts

Posted 13 July 2019 - 1421 PM

The United Kingdom is around the fifth or sixth largest economy in the world.  It ranks far above Russia or India.  Just something to think about...


I would bet that the vast majority of that is London finance, though.
  • 0

#22 Tim the Tank Nut

Tim the Tank Nut

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 5,806 posts
  • Interests:WW2 Armor (mostly US)

Posted 13 July 2019 - 1423 PM

I'm not sure.

Too many British companies are owned by foreign multinationals.  Tata Motors is a good example.

Her Majesty's Government has seemed willing to cozy up to Russian money and foreign money far more quickly than British money.

Wouldn't it have been better to make car ownership easier with less taxes and road usage fees rather than see the motor industry collapse?

Instead there is an active movement to rid London of cars entirely, that's nuts.

A few seasons before the end Top Gear did a show on things built in Britain.  It was impressive.  That really wasn't that long ago (2008?)

I really don't get it.  It seems like the UK's wastage is even worse than in the US and really that is impossible as it defies quantum physics.


  • 0

#23 Brian Kennedy

Brian Kennedy

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 5,276 posts

Posted 13 July 2019 - 1429 PM

The E Type was an incredibly beautiful, awesome luxury sports car. Most British cars from the 1960s on were garbage fires.

Edit to add: although I would probably do horrible crimes for a Jensen Interceptor.

Edited by Brian Kennedy, 13 July 2019 - 1434 PM.

  • 0

#24 Stuart Galbraith

Stuart Galbraith

    Just Another Salisbury Tourist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 53,943 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Eloiland

Posted 13 July 2019 - 1441 PM

But the E type has a problem. It's skin is so thin it rusted if you looked at it. Even worse, mechanics restoring it hate it. It's just so bloody awkward to put together.

The mini is another good example. Enzo Ferrari said of the copper mini, if it wasn't so ugly, he would have killed himself. But Ferrari made money on his cars. BL didn't. It lost money on every mini made in the 60s. People forget that now, but it is the cornerstone of the problem.

Edited by Stuart Galbraith, 13 July 2019 - 1444 PM.

  • 0

#25 Roman Alymov

Roman Alymov

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 18,440 posts
  • Location:Moscow, Russia
  • Interests:Tank recovery

Posted 13 July 2019 - 1444 PM

The United Kingdom is around the fifth or sixth largest economy in the world.  It ranks far above Russia or India. 

Only if you take nominal GDP - while in GDP PPP (far more accurate when it comes to real production, not making numbers in bank computers) the picture is way different
https://en.wikipedia...es_by_GDP_(PPP)

 

And if it comes to power consumption (another indicator of real economy) UK is less than 1\3 of Russia, lower then population ratio (partly explained by hard climate of Russia, of course - significant part of Russian energy consumption is just heating and traveling long distances) - not even mentioning China that is x20 of UK in terms of energy and rapidly growing
https://yearbook.ene...ption-data.html

 

If you look at trends by country (click it on map), you will see UK energy consumption stagnating if not on decline, while Russia in more or less steady growth despite all troubles


  • 0

#26 Brian Kennedy

Brian Kennedy

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 5,276 posts

Posted 13 July 2019 - 1445 PM

Why has nobody mentioned Lucas yet :)
  • 0

#27 Stuart Galbraith

Stuart Galbraith

    Just Another Salisbury Tourist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 53,943 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Eloiland

Posted 13 July 2019 - 1451 PM

There is no reason to get nasty, is there? :D
  • 0

#28 Tim the Tank Nut

Tim the Tank Nut

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 5,806 posts
  • Interests:WW2 Armor (mostly US)

Posted 13 July 2019 - 1454 PM

Roman, UK is still in the top ten on that list, nothing to be ashamed of.

I am a little surprised to see Brazil ranked as high as they are.  Maybe that list is a little suspect?

 

I am NOT bashing Russia in any form.  I am using it as a yardstick for nations that have an influence far in excess of their capacity.  Russia is number one by a long shot.

 

Also, regarding China

Russia and the rest of the world ignores Chinese growth at their peril.


  • 0

#29 Tim the Tank Nut

Tim the Tank Nut

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 5,806 posts
  • Interests:WW2 Armor (mostly US)

Posted 13 July 2019 - 1455 PM

I'm headed out for the day

thank you all for an interesting discussion that didn't turn foul

I appreciate it


  • 0

#30 Colin

Colin

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 16,874 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Vancouver, Canada
  • Interests:tanks, old and new AFV's, Landrovers, diving, hovercrafts

Posted 13 July 2019 - 1506 PM

But the E type has a problem. It's skin is so thin it rusted if you looked at it. Even worse, mechanics restoring it hate it. It's just so bloody awkward to put together.

The mini is another good example. Enzo Ferrari said of the copper mini, if it wasn't so ugly, he would have killed himself. But Ferrari made money on his cars. BL didn't. It lost money on every mini made in the 60s. People forget that now, but it is the cornerstone of the problem.

I say Landrover survived everything that British senior management could throw at it. Landrover was the only node of Leyland making money, so instead of reinvesting it into their money making product, they sucked it dry and failed to keep up, so eventually Landrover lost out to Toyota and Mercedes. 


  • 0

#31 MiloMorai

MiloMorai

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 3,826 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ottawa

Posted 13 July 2019 - 1523 PM

There is no reason to get nasty, is there? :D

I had a GT6+ back in the day. The designer should have been shot. Rear radius rods attached to the floor pan and no reinforcement. 3 years and they were no longer attached to the floor pan.


  • 0

#32 JWB

JWB

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 7,567 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:everything (almost)

Posted 13 July 2019 - 1554 PM

image002.jpg


  • 0

#33 JasonJ

JasonJ

    nonbiri

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 10,776 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:doko yarou
  • Interests:sleeping

Posted 13 July 2019 - 2252 PM

Roman, UK is still in the top ten on that list, nothing to be ashamed of.
I am a little surprised to see Brazil ranked as high as they are.  Maybe that list is a little suspect?
 
I am NOT bashing Russia in any form.  I am using it as a yardstick for nations that have an influence far in excess of their capacity.  Russia is number one by a long shot.
 
Also, regarding China
Russia and the rest of the world ignores Chinese growth at their peril.


For assessing a countries economic strength, both ppp and nominal need to be considered. For domestic activities, PPP is better. Pay for soldiers and workers and any domestically produced food and energy will be drawing from the PPP rate. Nominal rate takes into account the differences of strength of various currencies. So buying items abroad be it energy, high tech, machinery, military equipment, food from abroad, will be drawing from the nominal GDP rating. If a country has a weak currency but still has domestic energy and a military industry, than trucking a long on only high PPP with low nominal is workable. Pretty much only Russia has that. Brazil doesn't have such a military industry and doesn't have so much of the domestic energy. So for Brazil, nominal is more accurate to assess their power.
  • 0

#34 Nobu

Nobu

    Crew

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 2,786 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 13 July 2019 - 2343 PM

Losing India combined with the hobbling effect of the dependency created by the economic exploitation of it from 1765 to the 1930s certainly should be considered a factor. That this would not prepare a nation and its people well for economic takeoff in the post colonial era is not surprising in various ways.
  • 0

#35 JasonJ

JasonJ

    nonbiri

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 10,776 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:doko yarou
  • Interests:sleeping

Posted 14 July 2019 - 0016 AM

British empire oil source was probably secured in the various stages of autonomy in Iraq and Persia tbroughout the 30s and 40s. Maybe that secure level was lost in both countries in the 1950s.
  • 0

#36 Ivanhoe

Ivanhoe

    purposeful grimace

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 32,079 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:deep in the heart of ... darkness, USA
  • Interests:military technology, military history, weapon systems, management/organizational design, early American history

Posted 14 July 2019 - 0123 AM


Lucas was way ahead of its time. They wisely began preparing the British people for post-apocalyptic life, when motor vehicles will be static displays, and the only light will come from oil lamps run by rendered rats.
  • 0

#37 Stuart Galbraith

Stuart Galbraith

    Just Another Salisbury Tourist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 53,943 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Eloiland

Posted 14 July 2019 - 0230 AM

 

But the E type has a problem. It's skin is so thin it rusted if you looked at it. Even worse, mechanics restoring it hate it. It's just so bloody awkward to put together.

The mini is another good example. Enzo Ferrari said of the copper mini, if it wasn't so ugly, he would have killed himself. But Ferrari made money on his cars. BL didn't. It lost money on every mini made in the 60s. People forget that now, but it is the cornerstone of the problem.

I say Landrover survived everything that British senior management could throw at it. Landrover was the only node of Leyland making money, so instead of reinvesting it into their money making product, they sucked it dry and failed to keep up, so eventually Landrover lost out to Toyota and Mercedes. 

 

 

Im astonished it survived the British Leyland era looking back. They screwed up everything they touched.

 

There is perhaps a case for saying it survived because they didnt need to innovate. It was a fairly isolated part of the market (Farmers didnt want frills) and it got by with fairly modest advancements from the 88, tot he 109, to the defender. Its notable though there seems to be much more drive in it post 1978. I remember going into a landrover dealer in the early 1980's, and they had a big drive with lots of fancy brochures and the like.

 

But now, they are seriously innovating. Jaguar landrover are going to setup an electric vehicle plant in the UK, which is a promising development.

https://www.business...rs-at-uk-plant/

 

 

Lucas was way ahead of its time. They wisely began preparing the British people for post-apocalyptic life, when motor vehicles will be static displays, and the only light will come from oil lamps run by rendered rats.

 

I can still recall my father in the late 1970's cursing whilst trying to get his Ford Cortina MkIII started in the wet. The words 'HT Leads' were firmly impressed on my early vocabulary.


  • 0

#38 Stuart Galbraith

Stuart Galbraith

    Just Another Salisbury Tourist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 53,943 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Eloiland

Posted 14 July 2019 - 0235 AM

Losing India combined with the hobbling effect of the dependency created by the economic exploitation of it from 1765 to the 1930s certainly should be considered a factor. That this would not prepare a nation and its people well for economic takeoff in the post colonial era is not surprising in various ways.

 

Come on, that is absolutely not true. If Britain was dependent on it, it wouldn't have inovated the industrial revolution. We would just have done what spain did, kick up its heals and live off its Empire. I would argue the Empire was as much a drive for industrial inovation as territorial Britain. itself. Look at how many railways we built in India, or quite how much track we laid across Africa. In fact I seem to recall we developed new industrial dyes, despite having the ones from India, because the price of the ones from India was too expensive to ship. The Indian economy took a dive on that one I believe.

 

Did we get hit when India left? Yes, but I would argue losing the oil producing nations of the middle east was a greater hit. The WORST hit, the one everyone ignores, is we had an EU like safe trading area from Australia to the Bahama's. Its no surprise British industry declined when we gave the American's access to that trading area, and more importantly, when we lost that territory entirely.  If there was a lack of innovation in British industry, it might be partly due to our having a secure base, and not needing to innovate. Besides, the 1930s, and the 1940's were not exactly the right time to learn.


Edited by Stuart Galbraith, 14 July 2019 - 0242 AM.

  • 0

#39 Stuart Galbraith

Stuart Galbraith

    Just Another Salisbury Tourist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 53,943 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Eloiland

Posted 14 July 2019 - 0241 AM

 

There is no reason to get nasty, is there? :D

I had a GT6+ back in the day. The designer should have been shot. Rear radius rods attached to the floor pan and no reinforcement. 3 years and they were no longer attached to the floor pan.

 

 

There was a television documentary on about a Triumph Stag restoration some years ago. Now the Stag was an elegant vehicle, that really should have been the rennaisance of British Leyland. But it had a reputation as a dog, and it was plagued with engine problems. But they remain popular, largely due the Italian styling.

 

Restorers have different approaches. Some people put an American V8 in it, which is what it was designed for, not the 2 Triumph Dolomite engines welded together it got (I exaggerate, but not much). Some people put a new aftermarket fan on it. But the guys restoring this one on TV tried a different approach. They put it back as it was supposed to be built. They purged the system, bolted it together properly, and they had absolutely no problem's with it. None. Which just goes to show, how bad the production standards were at BL. They took a solid design and utterly ruined it in assembly.

 

British Middle Management. Once upon a time we could export them to the colonies to be slaughtered in their droves by the unruly populace, now we have to give the buggers jobs. No wonder the country took a nose dive.


  • 0

#40 bd1

bd1

    Crew

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 2,142 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:estonia

Posted 14 July 2019 - 0301 AM

reminds me how older land rover owners in east europe talk that this was such a nostalgia trip, like in soviet cars, after you got the brand new vehicle, first thing you took the wrench and re-tightened every nut 


  • 0




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users