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German Armed Forces reduced to 150 000?


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#41 seahawk

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 0513 AM

The Ch-53s to the Luftwaffe. So no new CSAR helo from them then.
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#42 BansheeOne

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 0539 AM

That seems to be the background. The "priority list" first confirmed that we're going to "Extended Personnel Recovery" instead of full-on CSAR, based upon the CH-53. Then there were rumors that the Luftwaffe, which had been developing CSAR capabilities using its old UH-1Ds as trainers for the NH 90 special variant eventually cancelled, would stay on the job and get CH-53s for it. Then the medium helicopter regiments were strangely missing from the Heer's new "Air Mobile Operations Command" structure as leaked. Now "Bild" reports that the CH-53s are going over to the Luftwaffe period (of course this was the same report that claimed there would only three Panzer battalions remain).
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#43 seahawk

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 0615 AM

So in the end al NH90 TTH go the the Heer and the Luftwaffe gets the CH-53.
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#44 BansheeOne

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 1054 AM

Variant 5 - An all-volunteer force of 180,000 by 2013. Reported to save more money than Variant 4 in the long run, probably due to abolishing the huge selective service system.


There may have been a reporting error: Some sources say Variant 5 also includes 30,000 conscripts (none of them voluntarily extended like currently possible) for a total force of 210,000, while Variant 1 has 50,000 conscripts (half of them voluntarily extended) on top of 156,000 professionals. Cannot confirm which is correct at this point.
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#45 BansheeOne

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 1245 PM

Variant 3 - A slightly larger all-volunteer force of 156,000 to be reached in six steps by 2016. Probably referred to in a press report from yesterday that predicted only three Panzer battalions of 44 each to remain.


Updates, updates.

The three-tank-battalion army structure, whatever variant it belongs to, by an obviously incomplete and reportedly still preliminary list allegedly also includes:

- four Panzergrenadier battalions

- six Jäger battalions (excluding the two of French-German Brigade which is mentioned seperately? Gebirgsjäger?)

- Airmobile Jäger Regiment 1

- one Fallschirmjäger regiment

- two artillery battalions.
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#46 BansheeOne

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Posted 27 August 2010 - 0838 AM

The three-tank-battalion army structure, whatever variant it belongs to, by an obviously incomplete and reportedly still preliminary list allegedly also includes:

- four Panzergrenadier battalions

- six Jäger battalions (excluding plus the two of French-German Brigade which is mentioned seperately? and one Gebirgsjäger regiment?)

- Airmobile Jäger Regiment 1

- one Fallschirmjäger regiment

- two artillery battalions.


An additional special operations Fallschirmjäger battalion is alleged to come under the Special Forces Command along with the KSK and Kampfschwimmer, sorta like the Rangers are related to Delta, or SFSG to the SAS and SBS. So far, the Fallschirmjägers have build up sub-units with "extended base capabilities" within the respective battalions.

The number of CH-53s is rumored to be cut from 80 to 66.

The Liberals are supporting Guttenberg's Variant 4, but also think it should be boosted a bit. FDP defense spokeswoman Elke Hoff just sent out a paper demanding 160-170,000 professionals and 20,000 short-timers.
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#47 Ssnake

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Posted 27 August 2010 - 1845 PM

The number of CH-53s is rumored to be cut from 80 to 66.

:blink: Makes sense. If there is one thing that is abundantly available in Afghanistan, it's large transport helicopters.
:rolleyes:
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#48 BansheeOne

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Posted 03 September 2010 - 1258 PM

There may have has been a reporting error: Some sources say Variant 5 also includes 30,000 conscripts (none of them voluntarily extended like currently possible) for a total force of 210,000,


The Inspector General's report was officially presented to the Bundestag's defense committee on Wednesday and is available online here. It contains some IMO badly-needed suggestions towards the end: reduce number of officers in proportion to enlisted personnel, reduce number of "lifers" clogging up senior ranks, introduce more flexible enlistment times extending beyond the current general maximum of twelve years instead of the current "life or out" after that.

The prevailing mood in the committee majority still seems to be for finding some middle ground between variants 4 and 5 with a force of about 180,000. Everybody is really waiting for the inspectors of the branches to present their force plannings under the various models. Until now, everything there is still rumor-based.

The latest counter-rumor is that the brigade level will not be abolished, it will just be fused with the division level. As two-star commands. :rolleyes: Of which there might be only three instead of four.

Allegations about capability transfers between branches continue. CH-53s and army air defense (including C-RAM) to the Luftwaffe, as mentioned earlier. Long range signals to central services, EOD to the Heer in return, etc.
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#49 Praet

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Posted 11 September 2010 - 1909 PM

CH-53s and army air defense (including C-RAM) to the Luftwaffe

I don't see this making sense, especially transferring the army air defense to the Luftwaffe. The Heeresflugabwehrtruppe is part of the Operation verbundener Kräfte (combined arms) concept, having them under Luftwaffe command would potentially weaken the cooperation.
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#50 Tomas Hoting

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 0328 AM

According to another German forum and blog, a future army structure (after the current reform plans) might look like this:

KdoLandOp

UnterstützungsKdo

EinsKdo 1 [= KdoSchwereKr]
2 Tank Battalions
2 Armoured Infantry Battalions
4 Infantry Battalions
1 Recon Regiment
1 Artillery Regiment
1 Engineer Regiment
1 Logistics Regiment

EinsKdo 2 [= KdoLgestKr]
1 Airborne Regiment
1 Air Assault Regiment
1 Attack Helicopter Regiment
1 Transport Helicopter Regiment

EinsKdo 3 [= KdoMittlKr]
1 Tank Battalion
2 Armoured Infantry Battalions
4 Infantry Battalions
1 Recon Regiment
1 Engineer Regiment
1 Logistics Regiment

EinsKdo 4 [= KdoMittlKr]
1 Tank Battalion
2 Armoured Infantry Battalions
1 Mountain Infantry Regiment
1 Recon Regiment
1 Engineer Regiment
1 Logistics Regiment

Franco-German Brigade
2 Infantry Battalions
1 Artillery Battalion

KSK

Raw summary:
4 tank battalions (58 tanks each)
6 armoured infantry battalions (44 IFVs each)
4 artillery batallions

and a lot of other infantry... ;)

Edited by Tomas Hoting, 21 September 2010 - 0943 AM.

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#51 BP

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 1059 AM

Sheesh, at the rate the West is going, a future joint op will be "The Bundesbattailon will support the Queen's Only Regiment, with the Canadian Battle Group in reserve. . . "
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#52 BansheeOne

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 1455 PM

Here's a cut that (almost) nobody would regret: according to media reports, the blue-ribbon Weise Committee will suggest in its final report that the Ministry of Defense give up its primary seat which is still in Bonn, concentrate in Berlin and slash its total personnel from 3,500 to 1,350. Unfortunately, this would violate the Bonn-Berlin Act, which stipulates the division of ministries between the old and new seat of government. But then Bonn has been amply reimbursed for its loss by other means now, and laws can be changed ...

The conservative party leadership, including the Bavarian CSU, has come around with surprising speed to support the defense minister's approach. Throughout the party, it almost seems like people are glad to finally quit living the lie of meaningful general conscription in an age of expeditionary warfare. The conventions are still ahead, but as it looks now the discussion will be mostly about force levels; numbers thrown around are from 180,000 to 200,000.

I still think the lower end of that most likely. The Inspector General's report estimated in view of demographics and economy that the Bundeswehr would be able to win at least 165,000, but not more than 180,000 professional soldiers in the near future (already, of the current 195,000 slots, 7,000 are unfilled); likewise, the head of the Weise Committee has estimated that the total potential of the future "short-timers" would be 15,000 to 20,000.
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#53 BansheeOne

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 0433 AM

According to another German forum and blog, a future army structure (after the current reform plans) might look like this:


The way I deciphered it, this would look like:


Land Operations Command ***


Deployment Command 1 ** (provides a brigade HQ for deployments)

- 1 Panzer battalion

- 2 Panzergrenadier battalions

- 2 Jäger battalions (+ 2 assigned from French-German Brigade)

- 1 artillery regiment

- recon regiment

- Pionier regiment

- logistics regiment


Deployment Command 2 ** (provides a brigade HQ for deployments)

- 1 Panzer battalion

- 2 Panzergrenadier battalions

- 4 Jäger battalions

- 2 Gebirgsjäger battalions (?)

- recon regiment

- Pionier regiment

- logistics regiment


Deployment Command 3 ** (provides a brigade HQ for deployments)

- 1 Panzer battalion

- 2 Panzergrenadier battalions

- 4 Jäger battalions

- 2 Gebirgsjäger battalions (?)

- recon regiment

- Pionier regiment

- logistics regiment


Air Mobile Forces Command **

- Air Mobile Jäger regiment

- Fallschirmjäger regiment

- attack helicopter battalion (?)

- light transport helicopter battalion (?)


German Contingent French-German Brigade

- 2 Jäger battalions

- 1 artillery battalion


Special Forces Command


I think the Gebirgsjäger and aviation units are wrong, there should be regiments somewhere instead of battalions. But then Wiegold said the charts he got had been copied and faxed so often they were all but unreadable. It's still all preliminary, anyway.

ETA: Here's a chart that makes somewhat more sense:

Posted Image

Edited by BansheeOne, 22 September 2010 - 0530 AM.

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#54 Leo Niehorster

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 1220 PM

Seems awful light on artillery. Is the thought that expeditionary forces don't need it?
Just noted that there are three times as many engineer units as artillery. (Not that I mind, being a former engineer.)
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#55 Panzermann

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Posted 23 September 2010 - 1440 PM

Seems awful light on artillery. Is the thought that expeditionary forces don't need it?
Just noted that there are three times as many engineer units as artillery. (Not that I mind, being a former engineer.)

Germany has at the moment two artillery pieces in service: the Panzerhaubitze 2000 (SP Arty) and MARS (european MLRS). Both are not really expeditionary and more like cold war. The towed FH-70 155 mm only serve as gate guards.

Edited by Panzermann, 26 October 2010 - 1405 PM.

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#56 BansheeOne

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 1158 AM

Both the Inspector General's report containing the original five models and the final report of the Weise committee officially presented today, are avaliable online now (German).

The Weise report confirms the content already leaked to the press in advance. Suggestions:

- suspend conscription; reduce force to ca. 180,000 with lower proportion of lifers; reduce civilian employees to ca. 50,000

- introduce voluntary citizen service of 15-23 months replacing current conscription and civilian substitute service; Bundeswehr should include up to 15,000 of those short-timers

- double force level avaliable for deployment to ca. 15,000

- halve MoD to ca. 1,500, delete Bonn seat; delete one permant state secretary post, reduce number of staff departments from 17 to eight, introduce effective controlling

- elevate inspector general to "Chief of Defence", controlling military side of MoD opposite permanent state secretary controlling civilian side; second surgeon general to CoD, centralized legal division to state secretary

- downgrade inspectors of the forces out of MoD as commanders of army, air force, navy, central services; integrate medical services into the latter, use surgeons mostly for medical as opposed to administrative tasks; consolidate respective force commands and force bureaus under the four commanders

- consolidate Operative Command Intervention Forces into Deployed Forces Command; consolidate special forces of all forces into Special Forces Command reporting directly to the latter

- despite rationalization, keep identificatory and attractive items like Bundeswehr universities, bands, sport groups, sail training ship "Gorch Fock" etc.

- consolidate parallel procurement responsibilities under an Bundeswehr Agency for Procurement; reduce and simplify system specifications, avoid gold-plating and specialized national solutions in favor of international standards and modular, OTS, exportable systems to aid national defense industry; harmonize defense export regulations with European standard.

Defense Minister zu Guttenberg has called the report a solid foundation for reform, though the suggestion might not be implemented 100 percent (as mentioned previously, the dual Bonn-Berlin seats of federal ministries are actually codified in law, and funnily this seems to be the most controversial point right now while there appears to be silent agreement on most of the rest). Even so he wants to achieve transformation of the MoD within two years, of the whole force within eight to ten. Meanwhile, the Conservatives in parliament are gunning for a total force of 190,000.

According to media reports today, negotiations with EADS have resulted in Germany reducing its A400M order from 60 to 53, and the UK from 25 to 22.
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#57 Jim Martin

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Posted 29 October 2010 - 0154 AM

According to media reports today, negotiations with EADS have resulted in Germany reducing its A400M order from 60 to 53, and the UK from 25 to 22.


A400M? What's that? :P
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#58 Tomas Hoting

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Posted 29 October 2010 - 0231 AM

A400M? What's that? :P


A400M = Aircraft 400 Million € ... :lol:
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#59 Jim Martin

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Posted 29 October 2010 - 2349 PM

A400M = Aircraft 400 Million € ... :lol:



400 Million planes that don't exist? ;)

Sorry, I've become utterly jaded at the aerospace industry. The Comanche, the A-12 Avenger, the F-35, the A400M, money sinkholes which I strongly suspect will wind up being cancelled, all of them. A400M is great on paper, really. I think it's great and we should buy some. If they ever managed to get it into production.

F-35 is a single engine Lego toy, lacking robustness and survivability, and not only am I cynical regarding its ultimate completion, I'm cynical about its combat worthiness.

Edited by Jim Martin, 29 October 2010 - 2351 PM.

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#60 BansheeOne

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Posted 30 October 2010 - 0529 AM

Meanwhile, the Conservatives in parliament are gunning for a total force of 190,000.


More precisely 192,000. This includes a plus of 10,000 for the Heer, 5,500 for the Luftwaffe, 4,000 for the Marine, 5,000 for the Streitkräftebasis and 2,500 for the Sanitätsdienst over the bare Guttenberg model four, plus the 1,500 projected for the future MoD not included there. Based upon statements by the inspectors of the forces what they would really need, especially for the Heer to retain proper divisions and brigades instead of those 1945-ish Divisionskampfgruppen.

The defense minister has reportedly said he's glad about any extra soldier demanded, but parliament will have to cough up the money for it, too (which might be the whole strategy behind presenting scarily low force levels). However, this is moving mighty close to the upper limit of volunteers projected to be recruitable in the near future (165,000-180,000 contract soldiers, 15,000-20,000 short-timers); and we all know how such projections turned out in many other European states when they abolished conscription.

Interestingly, the Weise report includes a suggestion to expand the opportunities for non-German EU citizens to serve in the Bundeswehr, and even a quite American (or French/Spanish?) "citizenship for service" approach for non-EUsians. At least that might cancel out the disproportionate numbers of Russian immigrants in the force ...

The transfer of army air defense to the Luftwaffe seems definite, BTW. The transfer of the CH-53s has become subject to a poker game with the inspector of the air force saying he'll only take them if they come with additional personnel slots (included in the Conservatives' demand above).

The convention of the Bavarian CSU, which was the more critical wing of the Conservatives regarding abolition of the draft, waved the reform through almost unanimously yesterday. The CDU convention from November 14th to 16th shouldn't be an obstacle then, either.

Edited by BansheeOne, 30 October 2010 - 0534 AM.

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