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Knm Helge Ingstad Collision


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#41 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 09 November 2018 - 1055 AM

 

Presumably there is a Helo on board as well?

 

(insert hilarious laughter)

The helicopter was supposed to be the NH-90, ordered 17 years ago and still not in active service. ^_^

 

 

Oh well, count your blessings then, eh? :)


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#42 Yama

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Posted 09 November 2018 - 1332 PM

Presumably there is a Helo on board as well?


(insert hilarious laughter)
The helicopter was supposed to be the NH-90, ordered 17 years ago and still not in active service. ^_^


In other words, type selection showed considerable foresight :P
 

The whole armed forces have been cronically mismanaged since 2001. We currently spend close to double what the finns do on defence yet the results are meager at best. There is very little in therms of spare parts available since such items have to be kept in storage and keeping storage cost a lot of rent, having to be paid at market prices back to the armed forces building bureau, which is then returned to the state coffers as income, it is basically a closed artifical circle economy. Everything has been drawn down and as long as the army could provide a few hundred men to Whereverstan, the navy could sail a few vessels as part of international missions and the air force could provide a flight of fighters for the same, everything else was left to wither and no one complained as interest in the armed forces was minimal until very recently. There is also a massive bureaucracy inherited from the past 17 years which continue to soak up defence funds like crazy. When the F-35 "Wunderwaffe" will be introduced in a few years, the navy will be cut back from 5 frigates, 6 FACs, 6 MCVs and 6 diesel submarines to 5 frigates and 4 subs. The current government is making some efforts to fix the problems, but it usually involves further cuts to the little that remains in order to fund what is to remain from that.


Oh yeah, whole 'market rate rent' thing exists here as well. About half of the garrisons have been closed and Army had to melt down half of its artillery when it was introduced (leaving us with mere 600 pieces).
Even better, schools and universities now also have to pay 'market rate rent' which in practice means that the state enterprise looks up absolutely highest local rates (main street rates) and bills accordingly. As a result universities have had to cut much of the unproductive useless stuff like research or teaching and concentrate on making money for state. So much for vaunted Finnish education!

We were super close going down the "Power projection peacekeeping army" road, there were lots of calls to scrap the outdated defence system and so forth, until Georgian war happened.
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#43 Simon Tan

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Posted 09 November 2018 - 2115 PM

TLDR....don't go to war to liberate bits of real estate you have a dispute with the Russians over.

 

Just cut all the arts and you'll be fine.


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#44 MiloMorai

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Posted 09 November 2018 - 2124 PM

Yama, you mentions schools and universities but not churches. Do churches get a 'free pass'?


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#45 Yama

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Posted 10 November 2018 - 0914 AM

Church property is owned by church, not the state, so they're not part of the rent blood-sucking scheme.


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#46 Chris Werb

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Posted 10 November 2018 - 1517 PM

 

 

Presumably there is a Helo on board as well?


(insert hilarious laughter)
The helicopter was supposed to be the NH-90, ordered 17 years ago and still not in active service. ^_^

 


In other words, type selection showed considerable foresight :P
 

The whole armed forces have been cronically mismanaged since 2001. We currently spend close to double what the finns do on defence yet the results are meager at best. There is very little in therms of spare parts available since such items have to be kept in storage and keeping storage cost a lot of rent, having to be paid at market prices back to the armed forces building bureau, which is then returned to the state coffers as income, it is basically a closed artifical circle economy. Everything has been drawn down and as long as the army could provide a few hundred men to Whereverstan, the navy could sail a few vessels as part of international missions and the air force could provide a flight of fighters for the same, everything else was left to wither and no one complained as interest in the armed forces was minimal until very recently. There is also a massive bureaucracy inherited from the past 17 years which continue to soak up defence funds like crazy. When the F-35 "Wunderwaffe" will be introduced in a few years, the navy will be cut back from 5 frigates, 6 FACs, 6 MCVs and 6 diesel submarines to 5 frigates and 4 subs. The current government is making some efforts to fix the problems, but it usually involves further cuts to the little that remains in order to fund what is to remain from that.


Oh yeah, whole 'market rate rent' thing exists here as well. About half of the garrisons have been closed and Army had to melt down half of its artillery when it was introduced (leaving us with mere 600 pieces).

 

To be fair 600 is rather a lot. You then "discovered" a metric shedload of artillery pieces in service with your naval service - not sure how that happened :)


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#47 bojan

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Posted 10 November 2018 - 1819 PM

Coastal artillery under a navy command?


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#48 MiloMorai

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Posted 10 November 2018 - 2005 PM

Coastal artillery under a navy command?

 

They would be shooting at targets on the sea.


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#49 Colin

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Posted 10 November 2018 - 2326 PM

Coastal artillery in the UK, Canada and the US was under army command.


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#50 R011

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Posted 11 November 2018 - 0002 AM

Coastal artillery in the UK, Canada and the US was under army command.


Kreigsmarine for the WW2 Germans. Idk if that was the case for the Imperial Navy.
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#51 Leo Niehorster

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Posted 11 November 2018 - 0423 AM

Coast artillery under the navy: Japan, France, Italy, Netherlands. Denmark, Norway, Finland, Bulgaria (although under Navy command), Greece, ...

Coast artillery under the army: USA, Belgian, Spain, ...

Coast artillery under both the army and the navy: Britian [1], Germany [2], USSR [3], ...

 

[1] Army and British Marines (MNBDO)

[2] Navy was mostly port/harbor defence. The army had a lot more of it, and they also did port/harbor defence.

[3] Mostly navy. Some army.
 


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#52 Daan

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Posted 11 November 2018 - 0537 AM

7KIQgS1.jpg


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#53 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 11 November 2018 - 0808 AM

Thats a gonner then. Sad, it was a nice looking ship.


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#54 Chris Werb

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Posted 11 November 2018 - 0916 AM

Coast artillery under the navy: Japan, France, Italy, Netherlands. Denmark, Norway, Finland, Bulgaria (although under Navy command), Greece, ...

Coast artillery under the army: USA, Belgian, Spain, ...

Coast artillery under both the army and the navy: Britian [1], Germany [2], USSR [3], ...

 

[1] Army and British Marines (MNBDO)

[2] Navy was mostly port/harbor defence. The army had a lot more of it, and they also did port/harbor defence.

[3] Mostly navy. Some army.
 

 

All British Coast Artillery was Army post WW2.


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#55 Panzermann

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Posted 11 November 2018 - 1033 AM

Thats a gonner then. Sad, it was a nice looking ship.

 

Why? Looks like the high tide flooded into the fjord.


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#56 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 11 November 2018 - 1038 AM

She clearly flooded out. Imagine how much electrical wire, electronic equipment and components are going to have to be replaced. Then bear in mind she is going to be suffering from corrosion by the time they get her out. When you tot up how much it will cost to fit her back out, they may as well write it off.

 

There was that Type 42 we had that ended up on rocks off Australia, and they refitted here. The obvious difference was she didnt actually sink, and it was politically necessary to demonstrate it wasnt a loss by putting it back in service. I dont believe the same circumstances exist here.

 

I could be wrong, im just detecting here there isnt enough money to go around for the forces Norway has. Regenerating a wrecked ship to me looks like a non starter.


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#57 BansheeOne

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Posted 11 November 2018 - 1421 PM

Improved Google translation of Norwegian news report.

 

KNM Helge Ingstad received several clear warnings from the tanker before the accident

The frigate KNM Helge Ingstad received clear warnings from the tanker Sola TS over the radio before the crash right into the front of the tanker. This is shown by the audio log that [newspaper] VG has received.

Per Annar Holm
Eirik Husøy
NTB


VG has published an audio log of the radio contact between the ships.

Fedje VTS is the Coastal Administration's watch center, which is responsible for the ships in the heavily trafficked fjord.

Three minutes before it strikes, the pilot on board the Sola TS asks the watch center which ship this is coming into the fjord.

Ten seconds later they answer:

"No, it's one, eh. I have not received any information about it. It has not reported to me. I just see it appear on the screen here," says Fedje VTS over ship radio.

Frigate came in at 17 knots

Radar images show that KNM Helge Ingstad goes south with 17 knots of speed, which equals 31.6 kilometers per hour. It had no deck lighting on, so it was hard to see, and it has features that make it difficult to detect on radar.

At the same time, Sola TS is coming up northwards at six knots.

The two ships are now on a collision course.

Fedje VTS to Sola TS:

"It is possible that it is Helge Ingstad. She came in from the north a while ago. It is possible that she is going there."

VG has informed the Armed Forces that they have sound logs and radar images from the accident. They do not want to comment on this.

 

"There will be a collision here."

So - one minute before the collision becomes fact - the tanker and warship have radio contact:

Without being sure if it's the frigate that comes against them, Sola TS asks if Helge Ingstad is coming towards them.

The warship confirms this five seconds later.

In the time that follows, the tanker asks the frigate repeatedly to change the course to starboard.

The answer from the frigate is: "Then we get too close to the shoals."

"Turn starboard if it's you coming. So you have ... ", Sola TS replies among other things.

Later, the tanker gives the following message: "Helge Ingstad! Turn!", before saying three seconds later:

"There will be a collision here."

The contact with Helge Ingstad will be sporadic after this, and with a lot of sound from the frigate's alarms. "We have given the alarm. Trying to get control of the situation", they say to the watch center, according to VG.

Although KNM Helge Ingstad before the collision had several radio exchanges with Sola TS, the frigate reports that they have collided with an unknown object and are adrift.

Then they ask for immediate assistance.

 

[...]

 

https://www.aftenpos...pet-for-ulykken

 

Disconcerting radio calls to get: "Helge Ingstad, there's bright light from your engine room."


Edited by BansheeOne, 12 November 2018 - 0335 AM.

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#58 lastdingo

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Posted 11 November 2018 - 1635 PM

@Stuart; keep in mind many compartments under the water surface may still be completely dry.


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#59 Yama

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Posted 11 November 2018 - 1654 PM

Might be, however she clearly has lost necessary buoyancy to stay afloat. So there is a LOTS of water inside the ship in any case.

USS Cole cost $250 million to repair and her electronics were mostly undamaged.


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#60 Yama

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Posted 11 November 2018 - 1658 PM

To be fair 600 is rather a lot. You then "discovered" a metric shedload of artillery pieces in service with your naval service - not sure how that happened :)


Hey, have you seen the map of southern Finnish coastline? There is LOTS of it to defend!
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