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Rheinmetall Lynx Kf41


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#1 Dawes

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Posted 12 June 2018 - 1936 PM

Anything that's really new about this AFV?

 

https://www.rheinmet.../lynx/index.php


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#2 KV7

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 0324 AM

Anything that's really new about this AFV?

 

https://www.rheinmet.../lynx/index.php

I am quite surprised there is such a market for a plethora of expensive AFV's.


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#3 Mr King

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 1237 PM

Dfed-9jUYAARdOQ.jpg


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#4 Dawes

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 2030 PM

Kind of looks like something that was carried on the dropship on "Aliens".


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#5 2805662

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 2311 PM


Anything that's really new about this AFV?
 
https://www.rheinmet.../lynx/index.php

I am quite surprised there is such a market for a plethora of expensive AFV's.

The request for tender for 450 IFV for Australia will be released inside the next 30 days.
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#6 Panzermann

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 0407 AM

 

 

Anything that's really new about this AFV?
 
https://www.rheinmet.../lynx/index.php

I am quite surprised there is such a market for a plethora of expensive AFV's.

The request for tender for 450 IFV for Australia will be released inside the next 30 days.

 

 

This for one.

 

Then there are all the middle-eastern european NATO states that still run soviet surplus IFVs that are going to need some replacement. At the moment the Lynx is being czeched out. The others like Bulgaria, romania etc are going to follow sooner or later. Then I don't know what Italy plans for its Dardo IFV: upgrade or replacement? Belgium might buy a new IFV.  Oh and Germany might come around and decide that the Puma IFV is too expensive for what it does. Who else is in for replacements in the near fututre?


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#7 methos

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 0528 AM

Who else is in for replacements in the near fututre?


They are hoping that the US Army decides that the Lynx KF41 is a better/cheaper option to replace the Bradley than the NGCV.


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#8 Inhapi

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 0738 AM

 

 

 

Anything that's really new about this AFV?
 
https://www.rheinmet.../lynx/index.php

I am quite surprised there is such a market for a plethora of expensive AFV's.

The request for tender for 450 IFV for Australia will be released inside the next 30 days.

 

 

This for one.

 

Then there are all the middle-eastern european NATO states that still run soviet surplus IFVs that are going to need some replacement. At the moment the Lynx is being czeched out. The others like Bulgaria, romania etc are going to follow sooner or later. Then I don't know what Italy plans for its Dardo IFV: upgrade or replacement? Belgium might buy a new IFV.  Oh and Germany might come around and decide that the Puma IFV is too expensive for what it does. Who else is in for replacements in the near fututre?

 

 

Given the political commotion in Belgium over the purchase of F-16 replacements (Gripen, Rafale , F-35 or even refurbishing the F-16's or buying new built F -16, will most probably be F-35, at least that is what he airforce wants), i think there will be no large military programmes funded for many years to come. No political party is willing to stick its neck out now for a very loooong time.


Edited by Inhapi, 14 June 2018 - 0756 AM.

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#9 MikeKiloPapa

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 1013 AM

Kind of looks like something that was carried on the dropship on "Aliens".

Yeah....it does look more like a sci-fi movie prop than a real combat vehicle......it might be somewhat off-putting to some military customers , many of which tend to be fairly conservative minded. Then again, this particular vehicle might just be more of a technology demonstrator instead of a real production version. 


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#10 MikeKiloPapa

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 1047 AM

 

 

 

Anything that's really new about this AFV?
 
https://www.rheinmet.../lynx/index.php

I am quite surprised there is such a market for a plethora of expensive AFV's.

The request for tender for 450 IFV for Australia will be released inside the next 30 days.

 

 

Oh and Germany might come around and decide that the Puma IFV is too expensive for what it does. 

People are delusional if they expect the KF41 to be significantly cheaper than the Puma, if at all. 

 

Its bigger, heavier, equipped with a more advanced turret, a new powerful 30 or 35mm gun (the WOTAN) ,the same ATGM and APS capability as Puma and arguably a greater growth potential . All that means, IMO, that there is a distinct possibility of it being MORE expensive than the Puma.  

 

The cost , coupled with it being a completely unproven platform makes the KF41 extremely unlikely for the Czech republic. If PSM doesnt win that by default(or bribes ;) ) , the CV90 will. 


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#11 methos

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 1421 PM

People are delusional if they expect the KF41 to be significantly cheaper than the Puma, if at all. 
 
Its bigger, heavier, equipped with a more advanced turret, a new powerful 30 or 35mm gun (the WOTAN) ,the same ATGM and APS capability as Puma and arguably a greater growth potential . All that means, IMO, that there is a distinct possibility of it being MORE expensive than the Puma.  
 
The cost , coupled with it being a completely unproven platform makes the KF41 extremely unlikely for the Czech republic. If PSM doesnt win that by default(or bribes ;) ) , the CV90 will.

 
Your assessment is based on what specific data? It seems to be very superficial and ignore several important factors that cause the high unit costs of the Puma IFV. Size and weight are hardly the determining factor for the unit costs of modern AFVs, as the Wiesel 2 mortar variant illustrates nicely (effective costs above €6 million per vehicle, weight less than 5 tonnes).
 
The Puma is going to be more expensive in several key areas, which is why I doubt that the Lynx KF41 cannot be significantly cheaper. First of all, the Puma was designed to meet a rather demanding set of requirements (mostly protection) while staying in a strict weight and size limit resulting from the A400M air transportability requirement. This is the reason why the Puma's hull is made with a special construction technique to save weight (essentially many parts of the hull are made of non-ballistic structural steel, which is bend rather than welded - this allows making the hull with less weld-lines that can tear up when hit by mines, having a thinner steel construction and using more composite armour, but introduces several additional steps in the manufacturing process and increases costs), which I doubt is used on the Lynx.The unmanned turret's structure is made of aluminium, which has to stay at the same temperature during the welding process, requiring active cooling and making the production more cumbersome, but it saves weight.
Likewise a German magazine reported that the Puma utilizes SICARDUR tiles (a brand name for a special type of silicium carbide armour) in its armour arrays rather than opting for the cheaper and more common aluminium-oxide tiles as used on armour of other combat vehicles (like the Fuchs 1A7, CV9030 and the ASCOD Ulan). SICADUR provides 25% more protection per weight than Al2O3-96, but costs seven times as much. I would be quite suprised if Rheinmetall offers the Lynx KF41 only with silicium carbide tiles. From what I have seen, the LANCE 2.0 (just like the LANCE 1.0) turret is made of simple welded ballistic steel, just like the hull. The Puma uses armour elements from 4 or more suppliers, the Lynx probably makes only use of Rheinmetall's in-house systems AMAP and VERHA.
 
Most parts of the Puma were specifically designed for the vehicle in order to meet the strict weight limit and demanding protection requirements set by the German army. This includes for example the NBC protection system, the decoupled running gear, the MT892 high power-density engine, the electronics, the optics, the laser rangefinder and even the tracks. These factors all blow up the costs of the vehicle, specifically if the quantitiy of the ordered vehicles is reduced.
Meanwhile the Lynx KF41 is making use of as many existing components as possible in order to keep the price down. The driver's station and some of the electronics are taken from the Kodiak (Rheimetall's Leopard-2-based armoured engineering vehicle), the NBC protection system is taken from the Boxer, the transmission is taken from the Puma and the track system from the Panzerhaubitze 2000. These are all cost-saving measures to make the vehicle more attractive to export users. It uses an off-the-shelf Liebherr engine (providing similar output as the Puma's MTU one, while being larger and about 550 kg heavier) and a suspension from Supashock, because these components are cheaper than the ones fitted to the Puma! The Wotan chain gun family was specifically designed for export to compete with the relatively cheap Bushmaster series of chain guns.
 
I also have troubles understanding why you can easily say that the LANCE 2.0 turret would be more advanced; there really is no indicator for that. It makes use of many, already proven systems like the SEOSS sights (that have been offered by Rheinmetall since more than a decade), the situational awareness system (which is being added to the Puma) and the ROSY 40 mm smoke grenade launcher (which make use of the same chemical compounds as the larger 76 mm ones used on the Puma). It has no missile warners, no laser warning system, no softkill APS, no optical back-up channel to the commander's sight, etc... Even the missile launcher presented on the Lynx KF41 seems to be a low-cost model compared to what Rheinmetall has developed for the Puma...
 
 
The bottom line is that there are lots of reasons why the Lynx KF41 should be cheaper than the Puma, unless one would try to shoehorn the Lynx KF41 into meeting the same requirements as the Puma.


Edited by methos, 14 June 2018 - 1421 PM.

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