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Meanwhile In The Baltic Republics And Poland...


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#2241 urbanoid

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 0745 AM

 

If you posit a Russian Marne Offensive for NATO to go all Taxi, Taxi on, you guys might be right; otherwise I think you underestimate German bureaucracy which was deadlining military vehicles deployed to Afghanistan on site for expiring their exhaust emmission checkups. Now for offensive purposes, even disregarding that three years ago NATO had no troops above battalion level that could have been deployed to Eastern Europe within less than a month, you don't decree one morning that peacetime regulations in a half-dozen member states are out and movements start tomorrow.

German tourists driving style on Crete roads convinced me all this regulations-obedience will be dropped as soon as no one watching for them :)

 

They're having their time off not just from work, but also from ORDNUNG!!! :D


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#2242 Roman Alymov

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 0817 AM

 

German tourists driving style on Crete roads convinced me all this regulations-obedience will be dropped as soon as no one watching for them :)

They're having their time off not just from work, but also from ORDNUNG!!! :D

 

Well, there is deeply rooted prejudice in Russia that ethnic Germans (even Russian Germans who have newer been in Germany) got ORDNUNG built-in (see discussion about Bezler-is-having-ordnung-in-Gorlovka-as-he-is-German  or Ulman-fired-at-this-civilians-since-he-as-German-was-not-going-to-violate-order)

Ethnic Germans are using this reputation when bargaining with HR managers.


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#2243 BansheeOne

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 1124 AM

Meanwhile the French are moving their eFP participation from Estonia to Lithuania. If I'm reading the "Mission Lynx" website correctly, they're relocating the same vehicles by train for a new company group led by 5e régiment de dragons to fall in on.

 

infographie-presence-avancee-renforcee-d

 

http://www.defense.g...rmet-la-bascule

 

The chart points out that a Croatian contingent of 180 led by 1st Mechanized Battalion "Tiger" and equipped with Patria AMVs already joined the battlegroup last month. They mixed up the Norwegian company team and Luxembourgian recce detachment though. It seems the Belgians are leaving, but there will be a Czech contribution later this year.

 

Apparently the Danes are filling in for the French with the British battlegroup in Estonia.


Edited by BansheeOne, 11 January 2018 - 1134 AM.

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#2244 carrierlost

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 1809 PM

Meanwhile the French are moving their eFP participation from Estonia to Lithuania. If I'm reading the "Mission Lynx" website correctly, they're relocating the same vehicles by train for a new company group led by 5e régiment de dragons to fall in on.

 

...

 

Apparently the Danes are filling in for the French with the British battlegroup in Estonia.

The French were meant to be here only till Danes arrive, so this is the original plan as I understand it.

The French started to pack up in beginning of December.  The Danes have been arriving this week. Here are some pics with their kit arriving in harbour. Not sure which harbour, probably Paldiski.

 

20180111122807-23918f33-xx.jpg

 

20180111122923-1b8eb21f-xx.jpg

 

To compensate leaving of the French  tanks, the number of Challengers located here has been increased by UK a couple of months ago.


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#2245 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 0331 AM

Oh joy, I have to change my TOAW scenario AGAIN! :rolleyes:

 

Any idea how many challengers they have present there now? Presumably something like 8, at which point im wondering if they went the whole hog and sent a company. it would make availability somewhat easier.

 

The danes would have presumably a company battlegroup? Would anyone know what that is please?


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#2246 BansheeOne

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 0429 AM

UK consolidates Estonia battlegroup with additional armour

 
Bruce Jones - Jane's Defence Weekly
15 November 2017

 

In early November, the 1st Battalion Royal Welsh took over as the lead unit of NATO’s multinational Enhanced Forward Presence (eFP) battlegroup in Estonia. It took over from the 5 Battalion The Rifles, which deployed 800 troops to Estonia in March.

 

The battlegroup forms part of the 1st Estonian Infantry Brigade.

 

On 8 November, the UK’s senior officer in Estonia, Colonel Giles Harris, explained in detail to Jane’s how the NATO deployment, the first in the Baltic region, is developing. Based in Tallinn, Col Harris commands the NATO eFP multinational battlegroup under Operation 'Cabrit', located at Tapa, eastern Estonia, and is also commander of British forces in the country. He reports to the UK Permanent Joint Headquarters (PJHQ) in Northwood, London.

 

The United Kingdom is to increase the number of its Challenger 2 main battle tanks (MBTs) to 10, which exceeds the previous combined total together with French Leclerc MBTs.

 

The French contingent is to withdraw in early December, to be replaced by a Danish armoured infantry company. Danish and Estonian forces both use the CV9035 tracked infantry fighting vehicle, which will provide commonality.

 

As far as future organisation is concerned, although a NATO multinational division is anticipated for eastern Poland, a NATO regional headquarters is not anticipated in the Baltic states, because each battlegroup is independent and there are no regional divisions.

 

More widely, the feeling is that establishing a headquarters in one Baltic state would probably confer disproportionate economic benefits in the country selected and could induce the effect of divide and rule to NATO’s detriment.

 

The colonel explained that the “construct of a sine wave” is used to determine the level of force and equipment required in response and in anticipation of expected activity nationally and regionally.

 

http://www.janes.com...ditional-armour

 

AIUI, the French and Danes are on eight-month rotations in Estonia, the French alternating between there and Lithuania, but the latter might be a one-time stint in the current plans horizon. The German lead is about to change from Panzergrenadierbataillon 371 "Marienberger Jäger" to Jägerbataillon 292 of the French-German Brigade, so that's probably kinda synchronized. On the German side future rotation until 2020 is between battalions from Panzerbrigade 12 and Panzergrenadierbrigade 37 of 10th Panzerdivision.


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#2247 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 0538 AM

Re Danes and French This to my mind doesnt seem to make a lot of sense. Surely the idea should be to keep them in a given area so they build up experience of it, and the troops they operate with?


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#2248 carrierlost

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 0852 AM

The danes would have presumably a company battlegroup? Would anyone know what that is please?

About 200 Danes majority (130) of which are from armored infantry company from Guard Hussar Regiment.

 

 

They brought 9 M113 and 6 CV90 in the ship.

 

 

 

Re Danes and French This to my mind doesnt seem to make a lot of sense. Surely the idea should be to keep them in a given area so they build up experience of it, and the troops they operate with?

 

Interesting, this is the first time I hear about it.  To my knowledge the units stationed within area of responsibility will be rotated (like 5th Rifles were replaced by Royal Welsh in Estonia), but the country they where specific nation would be in would remain the same. 


Edited by carrierlost, 12 January 2018 - 0853 AM.

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#2249 Simon Tan

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 2143 PM

How is all this not provocative?
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#2250 RETAC21

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 0419 AM

NATO countries cannot deploy forces to other NATO countries? 


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#2251 Simon Tan

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 0431 AM

Not on a permanent basis and not with regular surge exercises. NATO freaked out over Zapad and that was nowhere near the border.
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#2252 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 0536 AM

 

The danes would have presumably a company battlegroup? Would anyone know what that is please?

About 200 Danes majority (130) of which are from armored infantry company from Guard Hussar Regiment.

 

 

They brought 9 M113 and 6 CV90 in the ship.

 

 

 

Re Danes and French This to my mind doesnt seem to make a lot of sense. Surely the idea should be to keep them in a given area so they build up experience of it, and the troops they operate with?

 

Interesting, this is the first time I hear about it.  To my knowledge the units stationed within area of responsibility will be rotated (like 5th Rifles were replaced by Royal Welsh in Estonia), but the country they where specific nation would be in would remain the same. 

 

 

If you hear any more about that, do let us know. That has to be a mistake I think. At least, I cant see any sense in the French changing deployments every few months. I mean, De Gaulle is dead and all. :)


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#2253 GARGEAN

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 0552 AM

NATO countries cannot deploy forces to other NATO countries? 

NATO is bitching about any russian exercise on russian soil and any movements of formations at relative close to borders. Why should it be different for the other partly?
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#2254 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 0554 AM

Any exercise on Russian soil over three times the size that Russia's own agreements allow it to hold without observers. I mean, I know its a little thing and all...


The irony is, the reason for the Russian exercises and deployment are that we are going to invade. When its pretty clear NATO has extreme difficulty deploying troops across nations its allies with. And we are supposed to pull off Barbarossa 2? Dear God, can you imagine the paperwork that would take. :D

Edited by Stuart Galbraith, 13 January 2018 - 0555 AM.

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#2255 RETAC21

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 0646 AM

Not on a permanent basis and not with regular surge exercises. NATO freaked out over Zapad and that was nowhere near the border.

 

Surge is a strong word to use when deployed forces all fit in a medium sized airliner. This is the minimum tripwire force that can be deployed, but it's not even credible, amounting to company sized units.


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#2256 BansheeOne

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 0718 AM

Actually a surge of any size is the completely unproblematic part under the 1997 NATO-Russia Founding Act.

 

NATO reiterates that in the current and foreseeable security environment, the Alliance will carry out its collective defence and other missions by ensuring the necessary interoperability, integration, and capability for reinforcement rather than by additional permanent stationing of substantial combat forces. Accordingly, it will have to rely on adequate infrastructure commensurate with the above tasks. In this context, reinforcement may take place, when necessary, in the event of defence against a threat of aggression and missions in support of peace consistent with the United Nations Charter and the OSCE governing principles, as well as for exercises consistent with the adapted CFE Treaty, the provisions of the Vienna Document 1994 and mutually agreed transparency measures. Russia will exercise similar restraint in its conventional force deployments in Europe.

 

https://www.nato.int...ounding_act.pdf

 

The key terms remain "permanent" stationing of "substantial" combat forces. While the rotating nature of eFP forces is a mere figleaf to uphold the letter of the agreement even while Russia has run roughshod over the rules of national sovereignty in Europe from the 1975 Helsinki Accords, 1990 Paris Charter and 1994 Budapest Memorandum in Ukraine, "substantial" is an undefined squishy term; NATO generally holds it to mean "above brigade level", though some like former NATO Military Committee Chairman General Klaus Naumann and Poland consider it to mean "corps level and above". You could argue for any size really, but even if you based a mere company's worth in all of Eastern Europe, there's nothing in the agreement keeping you from REFORGING in 100,000 troops every year for exercises.

 

Of course if you start reading at "in the current and foreseeable security environment", all following is really moot anyway.


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#2257 Roman Alymov

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Posted 15 January 2018 - 0412 AM

Family of Russian tourists from Kaliningrad attacked by stones in Gdansk, Poland, by unknown people who were throwing rocks from the building window at their car (with Russian number plates). Local police ignored attackers and was focused on finding out what tourists were doing in Gdansk, according to tourists themselves.
https://www.bfm.ru/news/374980 (in Rus)
Seems like all this hate speech taking effect.


Edited by Roman Alymov, 15 January 2018 - 0413 AM.

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#2258 Simon Tan

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Posted 15 January 2018 - 0444 AM

Danzigers just being friendly towards Konigsbergers. Only RT would cjracterize playful youthful stonethrowing as aggressive.
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#2259 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 15 January 2018 - 0533 AM

Anyone have a video? Because doing a search for this on google, the only thing you get for Russian Rocks are all kinds of links to sites that are probably NSFW. :)


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#2260 urbanoid

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Posted 15 January 2018 - 0546 AM

There is no video, also they weren't in the car when that happened.


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