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When Defending Cops Becomes Impossible


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#41 Marek Tucan

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Posted 10 December 2017 - 0750 AM

European police forces use captains , lieutenants and other military ranks without going into the same re. General population. I think it might be result of the general polarization of the us society, along with the nice populist fallacies of "criticism f police means you are a cultural marxist against law and order" vs. "all police are trigger happy bullies".

In cz use of arms by police is rare and mostly against runaway drivers. Cops in traffic stops are generally polite and not on the edge despite plenty of guns in the population...
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#42 toysoldier

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Posted 10 December 2017 - 0822 AM

I would laid some blame at the feet of citizens that absolutely must call the police on account of every loud fart.
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#43 Ivanhoe

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Posted 10 December 2017 - 1010 AM

Of course the officers involved said every thing worked as it should. Wouldnt have done anything different. Guy caused his own death by his reckless actions.

IMO The officer who pulled the trigger wasnt responsible for Shaver's death, the Sgt giving the commands was.

 

I recall from one of those old "shoot, don't shoot" training videos from the 1980s that one of the test scenarios is where a suspect is running away, and some other cop is yelling "shoot him! shoot him!" or some such. The sermon was that the guy pulling the trigger must have an articulable reason to use deadly force. "Joe told me to" not being sufficient. Shooter has ownership of all bullets sent downrange sorta thing. Dunno what the current doctrine is.

 

However, I have no problem with other officers going before the court for contributory negligence etc. The "multiple morons" scenario seems to keep happening, so the overall LE community is not adequately addressing the problem.


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#44 Murph

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Posted 10 December 2017 - 1022 AM

No sh*t, I have had calls for a kid not wanting to get out of bed, and for tree branches being over the neighbors fence.


I would laid some blame at the feet of citizens that absolutely must call the police on account of every loud fart.


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#45 Murph

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Posted 10 December 2017 - 1025 AM

We don’t the Texas Rangers investigate any we have. Bigger departments though keep it in house.


I wouldn't condemn cops as a whole as in any group of people, there are always jackasses.   Wasn't there but it seems like the cop was in the wrong here.
 
One thing I think should change is police departments shouldn't get to investigate their own shootings.  There should probably be a state-level agency that does it.  No military unit that has an aircraft mishap investigates it themselves; outsiders come and do it to get a more objective look.  
 
Also, I don't think police should use military ranks nor military rank insignia.  I think in some cases that stimulates the us-versus-them mentality.  
 
At any rate, the vast majority of police are normal, decent people trying to do a very difficult job while being under-resourced and under-trained (we expect them to be social workers and ombudsman too).


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#46 BansheeOne

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Posted 10 December 2017 - 1137 AM

European police forces use captains , lieutenants and other military ranks without going into the same re. General population. I think it might be result of the general polarization of the us society, along with the nice populist fallacies of "criticism f police means you are a cultural marxist against law and order" vs. "all police are trigger happy bullies".

In cz use of arms by police is rare and mostly against runaway drivers. Cops in traffic stops are generally polite and not on the edge despite plenty of guns in the population...

 

More or less all continental European police forces have a military heritage, even if (nowadays) using civilian ranks like in Germany; after WW II the uniformed branches took over the detective "officer" designations like Inspektor, Kommissar etc. The lower rank designation of Wachtmeister was originally military too, an alternate to Feldwebel that remained in use in the Wehrmacht cavalry and artillery, and in the Swiss and Austrian armies to this day. It's just the way the military was used for internal order on the continent, too, evolving towards dedicated police forces via the French Gendarmerie type spread during the Napoleonic Wars, while the Anglo approach was more civilian.

 

I suspect the major cause for the unfortunate us-vs.-them, officer security über alles development in the US is that cops have some legitimate reason for fear working in a violent, armed society, and it's not something really new. As I've pointed out before, the gunfight at the O.K. Corral was really a messed-up affair that the lawmen didn't seem to expect, but drew accusations of murder by the opposing side; Bonny and Clyde were killed in a classical military ambush without as much as a "freeze"; dropping an explosive charge on the MOVE headquarters in Philadelphia from a helicopter wasn't exactly standard police work either. I think most people fail to fully understand the old adage of an armed society being a polite society - it's not an automatic result, but has to be actively lived by a sufficient majority. Because the full text should probably read "an armed society is a polite society, or it will blow up".

 

Not that local police don't show some of the same tendencies, in part probably because as in so many areas, the US is a role model people elsewhere like to emulate because American is cool, setting international trends for better or worse via Hollywood, the internet etc.; OTOH the same is also true for criminals and wannabe gangstas, and regardless of cultural influences the climate in crime hotspots has certainly become rougher along with a general decay of respect for official authority, or what is seen as such - first responders of all kinds including EMTs and firefighters (see the mounting complaints about people resisting being told to stop jamming accident sites while taking cellphone pictures), railroad staff, and so on. Sometimes I think that after two dictatorships over the last century people here want to prove they're not blindly obedient to authorities just a little too much.

 

Overall the cop on the street tends to be safer than his US counterparts though, spectacular cases to the contrary notwithstanding; two from this year I can recall is the Federal Police officer who got shot in the head with the duty gun a troublemaker had wrestled away from her colleague at a Munich S-Bahn station (she also shot him and survived, but I've heard nothing positive about her status), and the two who were run over and killed at a roadblock by a schizophrenic on drugs who had previously stabbed his grandmother to death in Brandenburg. Going further back, there's of course the still somewhat mysterious case of BW officer Michelle Kiesewetter who is listed as the only German victim of the National Socialist Underground terror cell. At least her duty gun was found at their hideout; her colleague who was also shot in the head during the incident recovered, but has no recollection of what happened while they were supposedly taking a break in their cruiser. I also dimly recall a case where two criminal brothers (?) ambushed a police car chasing them, using an automatic weapon.

 

House calls are probably the most risky; a couple years ago two officers responding to a domestic disturbance call on my block were stabbed in the head and neck with a pair of scissors by the enraged Vietnamese guy opening the door, which resulted in me coming home to a street parked solid with police cars. Any calls involving a barricaded and/or possibly armed suspect are typically served by SEKs, and they tend to have the most noted losses. There was one in Berlin a couple years ago where IIRC a guy from an Arab clan shot the first man through the door below the latter's bulletproof visor, then quickly laid down the gun and surrendered to be taken alive, which miraculously seems to be the usual outcome in such cases. Same with the Reichsbürger who was expecting the raid to take his guns in BW earlier this year and killed one officer (it later turned out he had been tipped off about impending action via a cop somewhat sympathetic to the movement); and the Hell's Angels chapter head in RLP who was acquitted for killing an SEK trooper outside his door with a legally-owned gun because the officers hadn't identified themselves, and he could argue to have acted in putative self-defense against an attack by rival rockers he expected.

 

But police also mess up, SEKs get the housenumbers wrong, people get killed by panicked officers, etc. The most egregious case to me is two officers acting on a wrong tip that an urgently wanted serial killer, robber and rapist was staying at a Thuringia hotel in 1999, who shot an unsuspecting tourist through the closed door of his room, which violates about any rule for firearms use I can think of. Then there were the two who between themselves fired a total of three full magazines into a mentally handicapped guy playing in the woods with a self-made wooden rifle. Incidentally, when the assault weapons ban subsequently was lifted in 2003 and airsoft rifles became legal, police unions wailed that there would be a trail of mistakenly-shot kids, the lack of evidence from other European countries to the contrary. In fact while there has been a wealth of "man with a gun" calls that turned out to be kids with airsoft, nothing of that sort has happened. Even so, guns of less than 0.5 joule energy which are covered by the EU toy guideline and thus could be carried in public were later selectively banned from doing so again. I tend to be cautious with my collection around windows specifically for the possibility that a nosy and hysterical neighbor has nothing better to do than cause an SEK to break through my door.


Edited by BansheeOne, 10 December 2017 - 1139 AM.

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#47 Rickard N

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Posted 10 December 2017 - 1159 AM

Um

 

European police forces use captains , lieutenants and other military ranks without going into the same re. General population. I think it might be result of the general polarization of the us society, along with the nice populist fallacies of "criticism f police means you are a cultural marxist against law and order" vs. "all police are trigger happy bullies".

In cz use of arms by police is rare and mostly against runaway drivers. Cops in traffic stops are generally polite and not on the edge despite plenty of guns in the population...

I don't know much about the British military but I would think that the amount of Detective Chief Superintendents are quote low :D

Same goes for the Swedish police btw.

 

/R


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#48 RETAC21

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Posted 10 December 2017 - 1227 PM

European police forces use captains , lieutenants and other military ranks without going into the same re. General population. I think it might be result of the general polarization of the us society, along with the nice populist fallacies of "criticism f police means you are a cultural marxist against law and order" vs. "all police are trigger happy bullies".

In cz use of arms by police is rare and mostly against runaway drivers. Cops in traffic stops are generally polite and not on the edge despite plenty of guns in the population...

 

Actually GNR (Portugal), Guardia Civil (Spain), Gendarmerie (France) and Carabinieri (Italy) are military, guess others too.


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#49 Murph

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Posted 10 December 2017 - 1250 PM

Well, we have the ranks of: Deputy, Senior Deputy (PFC stripes), Corporal, Sergeant, Lieutenant, and Captain.  Plus Chief Deputy and Sheriff.  We are in our own way a paramilitary organization, albeit one with no more than 5-6 patrol deputies on at any given time for 711+ square miles.  So you have to handle a bunch of calls by yourself, rather than like big cities which had 5-10 officers per call.  You learn to talk to people first.

 

All our shootings have been investigated by the Texas Rangers and they are as unbiased as you can get.  Thank goodness we don't have many of them at all. 

 

I have seen an increasing desire on the part of the public to let us (the Sheriff's Office) handle things that 20 years ago, they would have handled themselves.  I have seen people ask us to make their kids get up, get on the bus, do their homework, etc.  The 9-1-1 calls that come in have a number which are silly in the extreme, which makes me wonder if he have a nation of adults any more?


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#50 Cinaruco

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Posted 10 December 2017 - 1324 PM

I have seen an increasing desire on the part of the public to let us (the Sheriff's Office) handle things that 20 years ago, they would have handled themselves.  I have seen people ask us to make their kids get up, get on the bus, do their homework, etc.  The 9-1-1 calls that come in have a number which are silly in the extreme, which makes me wonder if he have a nation of adults any more?

The nanny state is a result of cultural Marxism, the next part is called Police State, Citizen.


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#51 Mr King

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Posted 10 December 2017 - 1344 PM

 

I have seen an increasing desire on the part of the public to let us (the Sheriff's Office) handle things that 20 years ago, they would have handled themselves.  I have seen people ask us to make their kids get up, get on the bus, do their homework, etc.  The 9-1-1 calls that come in have a number which are silly in the extreme, which makes me wonder if he have a nation of adults any more?

 

There is a cure for that, or at least a way to treat the symptom. Start charging people with misuse of 911. 


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#52 DKTanker

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Posted 10 December 2017 - 1402 PM

 

 

I have seen an increasing desire on the part of the public to let us (the Sheriff's Office) handle things that 20 years ago, they would have handled themselves.  I have seen people ask us to make their kids get up, get on the bus, do their homework, etc.  The 9-1-1 calls that come in have a number which are silly in the extreme, which makes me wonder if he have a nation of adults any more?

 

There is a cure for that, or at least a way to treat the symptom. Start charging people with misuse of 911. 

 

That's exactly what it is, a symptom of the Nanny state.  I fear that things will get much much worse before they can become better.


Edited by DKTanker, 10 December 2017 - 1412 PM.

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#53 Mikel2

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Posted 10 December 2017 - 1506 PM

 

I have had guys approach me in felony situations screaming things like "Don't shoot me, I give up", and then as soon as they get within lunging distance they attack.  I was told by an old veteran cop (Texas Ranger), that you use short (3-4 words) sentences, loudly, and repeat it.  "Stop!" "Do Not Move" "Lay on the ground!, Show me your hands", because studies have shown that people remember, and react to short authoritative statements. 

 

 

A dog trainer talking about this on another board posted this:

 

 

Is the command "BOWSER... CRAWL"

 

or is it "BOWSER, STICK YOUR PAWS UP, KEEP YOUR PAWS UP OR THIS IS GOING TO END BADLY FOR YOU, CRAWL, IF YOU PUT YOUR PAWS DOWN AGAIN I WILL SHOOT YOU, CRAWL, I SAID STOP RIGHT THERE, IF YOU MOVE YOUR PAWS AGAIN I WILL SHOOT, YOURE NOT CRAWLING AND IVE ALREADY SPECIFICALLY ASKED YOU TO CRAWL AND NOW YOUR PAWS DOWN AGAIN, WHAT DID I JUST SAY? WHAT DID I JUST SAY? NOW CRAWL GODDAMIT GET YOUR PAWS UP"

 

:D (as tragic as this is)


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#54 Murph

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Posted 10 December 2017 - 1641 PM

That is why you give very short easy to remember commands, no more than five words, less is better.

 

 

I have had guys approach me in felony situations screaming things like "Don't shoot me, I give up", and then as soon as they get within lunging distance they attack.  I was told by an old veteran cop (Texas Ranger), that you use short (3-4 words) sentences, loudly, and repeat it.  "Stop!" "Do Not Move" "Lay on the ground!, Show me your hands", because studies have shown that people remember, and react to short authoritative statements. 

 

 

A dog trainer talking about this on another board posted this:

 

 

Is the command "BOWSER... CRAWL"

 

or is it "BOWSER, STICK YOUR PAWS UP, KEEP YOUR PAWS UP OR THIS IS GOING TO END BADLY FOR YOU, CRAWL, IF YOU PUT YOUR PAWS DOWN AGAIN I WILL SHOOT YOU, CRAWL, I SAID STOP RIGHT THERE, IF YOU MOVE YOUR PAWS AGAIN I WILL SHOOT, YOURE NOT CRAWLING AND IVE ALREADY SPECIFICALLY ASKED YOU TO CRAWL AND NOW YOUR PAWS DOWN AGAIN, WHAT DID I JUST SAY? WHAT DID I JUST SAY? NOW CRAWL GODDAMIT GET YOUR PAWS UP"

 

:D (as tragic as this is)

 


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#55 Rick

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Posted 10 December 2017 - 1854 PM

 

I have seen an increasing desire on the part of the public to let us (the Sheriff's Office) handle things that 20 years ago, they would have handled themselves.  I have seen people ask us to make their kids get up, get on the bus, do their homework, etc.  The 9-1-1 calls that come in have a number which are silly in the extreme, which makes me wonder if he have a nation of adults any more?

The nanny state is a result of cultural Marxism, the next part is called Police State, Citizen.

 

20+ years ago parents and other responsible adults were not getting sued or threaten with other litigation. 


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#56 Mikel2

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Posted 10 December 2017 - 1924 PM

 

 

I have seen an increasing desire on the part of the public to let us (the Sheriff's Office) handle things that 20 years ago, they would have handled themselves.  I have seen people ask us to make their kids get up, get on the bus, do their homework, etc.  The 9-1-1 calls that come in have a number which are silly in the extreme, which makes me wonder if he have a nation of adults any more?

The nanny state is a result of cultural Marxism, the next part is called Police State, Citizen.

 

20+ years ago parents and other responsible adults were not getting sued or threaten with other litigation. 

 

 

That's what you get when people grow up to be in a permanent state of childhood.  Adulthood used to mean responsibility and independence.  Such outdated notions...


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#57 DKTanker

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Posted 10 December 2017 - 1945 PM

20+ years ago parents and other responsible adults were not getting sued or threaten with other litigation. 

 

Sure they were.  Our litigious society isn't new at all, you might not have been aware of the civil suits, but they were happening nevertheless.


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#58 KV7

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 0120 AM

I wouldn't condemn cops as a whole as in any group of people, there are always jackasses.   Wasn't there but it seems like the cop was in the wrong here.

 

One thing I think should change is police departments shouldn't get to investigate their own shootings.  There should probably be a state-level agency that does it.  No military unit that has an aircraft mishap investigates it themselves; outsiders come and do it to get a more objective look.  

 

Also, I don't think police should use military ranks nor military rank insignia.  I think in some cases that stimulates the us-versus-them mentality.  

 

At any rate, the vast majority of police are normal, decent people trying to do a very difficult job while being under-resourced and under-trained (we expect them to be social workers and ombudsman too).  

This is not really the case due to selection and training effects:

(1) people who have some bullying, sadistic etc. personality are attracted

(2) people who join either learn to adopt the 'culture' or leave or are fired

(3) people who join already have at the least some 'we can fix crime by getting the baddies' which is often hardened by being exposed to all sorts of degeneracy. Then it drifts into 'these people are all degenerates, stuff them, lets give them a beating'.

(4) policing is not an especially high status job, so people who are insecure are going to suffer from some sort of status anxiety.

As evidence for the (3) effect, look at how in areas where a particular drug or activity is being cracked down on, this leads to a new prejudice about those people, i.e once you instruct police to arrest people for being drunk, drunkenness goes from some innocuous thing to (among police at least), 'damn violent asshole drunks'. This is because now the police are picking up drunks, and once you arrest 30 people for something you are bound to get called some list of expletives and worse. You could criminalise wearing silly hats and soon enough you would have some 'bloody silly hat wearing lunatics' attitude among police. Of course violent criminals etc. are actually awful people, but a lot of policing in the US at least is cracking down on drug and petty offenses, even just being homeless etc.

Unlike the US, my impression of police in Japan and much of Europe is that they have an attitude of 'people are generally fine and good, there are just a few bad apples, our job is to keep people safe from these people'. 
 


Edited by KV7, 11 December 2017 - 0123 AM.

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#59 BansheeOne

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 0702 AM

I also dimly recall a case where two criminal brothers (?) ambushed a police car chasing them, using an automatic weapon.

 

Found the incident; six years ago on the outskirts of Augsburg. Patrol car crew was going for a routine check of two riders of a motorcycle parked at a wooded rest area at three in the morning. Guys fled, officers took up pursuit, bike crashed on wet ground trying to escape into the woods. When the officers got out of the car and ordered the suspects to lay down, they opened fire with a pistol and two AKs at ten meters range. The male officer was brought down by three pistol rounds despite wearing body armor, trying to take cover behind some trees and firing two magazines from his P 7 himself, then was finished off with five AK rounds from close range; his female colleague took cover behind the cruiser's door and fired four shots from her handgun, but wasn't sure whether she had hit anything and was also lightly wounded. The suspects then fled on foot. Two months later DNA from the crime scene was matched to a 56-year-old who had already shot an Augsburg cop dead in 1975 and served 19 years of a life sentence for it. His 58-year-old brother was also arrested; both were sentenced to life, including security containment in the case of the younger brother, but not of the older who was suffering from Parkinson. This was the third murder of an Augsburg police officer since 1945.

 

The "ambush" part I remembered was probably another similar case from 1991 in Holzminden, Lower Saxony though; a patrol in an unmarked car was lured to a highway rest area by a call about a vehicle accident with an animal at 0230 hours, where they vanished. Traces of blood, teeth, bones and tissue were found on the scene along with 7.62 mm cases; the car of the officers was found burnt out and with numerous bullet holes by a hunter in a nearby military exercise area. Police installed a hotline with a recording of the fake call; the voice was identified by several inmates of a Bielefeld, NRW prison as that of a 29-year-old who had been released for good conduct after serving ten months shortly before. A neighbor of the suspect also recognized the voice, but didn't notify police for fear of his safety.

 

The suspect was arrested by an SEK along with two brothers; a scoped G 3 rifle and two Uzi SMGs were found at their house, which had been stolen in a series of break-ins into Bundeswehr barracks and from sleeping Dutch soldiers on exercise between 1986 and 1988; the duty guns of the two cops were later found buried nearby. The main suspect eventually led police to the bodies of the officers who had been killed with 13 rounds from the G 3 at less than seven meters distance immediately upon arrival to the rest area out of a general hate for cops, then buried in the exercise area where their car was also found. He was sentenced to life with a finding of particular grave guilt, a minimum of 25 years to be served, with subsequent security containment; one of his brothers was given ten year for being an accessory to murder and aggravated robbery, the other was acquitted for a lack of evidence for the murder charge, but given two years suspended for being an accessory to robbery.

 

According to the probably incomplete list on this memorial site, a little over 100 German officers have been killed in the line of duty since 1961, though this includes incidents like the three from the Kabul embassy protection detachment blown up by a bomb under their car in 2007. There are other bad days however: Three killed and one wounded in a traffic stop and the subsequent manhunt by a guy who in the end shot himself in Dortmund, 2000; two run over on purpose by a drunk Danish truck driver at a checkpoint on the Danish border, 1995; five stabbed, two of them fatally, by a Liberian checked for fare evasion, the latter shot by one of the fatally wounded officers in Stuttgart, 1989; three killed by a Yugoslavian at the police station with guns that were seized from him near Munich, 1988; nine shot, two of them fatally, during a protest against construction of a new runway at Frankfurt Airport in 1987; two shot by three fugitive prison inmates who were building an armored car and bombs in a Hannover workshop the same year; two shot through a closed door by a student who thought his father was outside in 1981; two shot by a Belgian soldier without apparent reason in Arnsberg, 1979; three killed on protection duty in the RAF kidnapping of Hanns-Martin Schleyer in 1977; three killed in a multi-hour shootout with the owner of a flat that was to be searched for weapons in 1972.


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#60 Murph

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 0734 AM

My comments in bold.  

 

I wouldn't condemn cops as a whole as in any group of people, there are always jackasses.   Wasn't there but it seems like the cop was in the wrong here.

 

One thing I think should change is police departments shouldn't get to investigate their own shootings.  There should probably be a state-level agency that does it.  No military unit that has an aircraft mishap investigates it themselves; outsiders come and do it to get a more objective look.  

 

Also, I don't think police should use military ranks nor military rank insignia.  I think in some cases that stimulates the us-versus-them mentality.  

 

At any rate, the vast majority of police are normal, decent people trying to do a very difficult job while being under-resourced and under-trained (we expect them to be social workers and ombudsman too).  

This is not really the case due to selection and training effects:

(1) people who have some bullying, sadistic etc. personality are attracted There is that, but in Texas you have to have a Psychological examination before you can get hired.

(2) people who join either learn to adopt the 'culture' or leave or are fired  Agreed, we are "Tribal" in nature, and there is a distinct cop culture.  Most of it is expressed through really, really dark humor, and being really cynical.  

(3) people who join already have at the least some 'we can fix crime by getting the baddies' which is often hardened by being exposed to all sorts of degeneracy. Then it drifts into 'these people are all degenerates, stuff them, lets give them a beating'.Most young cops come in thinking they are the Paladin's who can make a difference, and save the world.  They learn quickly, or leave.  Same with most social workers at CPS.  Most leave withing six months when they find out that real life is not social work school, and their good liberal attitudes, and platitudes are not real.

(4) policing is not an especially high status job, so people who are insecure are going to suffer from some sort of status anxiety.You don't get into this job to get rich.  But that being said, I get paid ok.  

As evidence for the (3) effect, look at how in areas where a particular drug or activity is being cracked down on, this leads to a new prejudice about those people, i.e once you instruct police to arrest people for being drunk, drunkenness goes from some innocuous thing to (among police at least), 'damn violent asshole drunks'. This is because now the police are picking up drunks, and once you arrest 30 people for something you are bound to get called some list of expletives and worse. You could criminalise wearing silly hats and soon enough you would have some 'bloody silly hat wearing lunatics' attitude among police. Of course violent criminals etc. are actually awful people, but a lot of policing in the US at least is cracking down on drug and petty offenses, even just being homeless etc. After you have dealt with the same drunk over and over, you get acclimitized to it.  You also see the horrific effects of drugs close at hand.  But back to drunks, one guy I started arresting for Public Intoxication at the beginning of my career, is still at it.  He has close to 400 arrests for PI at this point.  And there were probably 400 plus times we took him home.  But when he is urinating in public, fighting us, fighting someone else, or doing something else you just shake your head at, he goes to jail.  We used to be able to take drunks home, but MADD, and other groups have frightened the Administrations via lawsuits enough that it became zero tolerance, go to jail.  I used to either take more drunks home or get them a ride than I arrested.  But after MADD got involved, to jail they went.  

Unlike the US, my impression of police in Japan and much of Europe is that they have an attitude of 'people are generally fine and good, there are just a few bad apples, our job is to keep people safe from these people'.I can't address that, but I know here, we worry if we don't do something will we get sued for "failure to act", or some similar lawsuit.  90% of what happens is in reaction to getting sued, or threatened with lawsuits.  After being sued twice in Federal court for patently false allegations by a guy who makes his living suing people, I don't talk to any citizen unless I am recording the interaction.  After a while there is a definite "Us vs Them" mentality since most citizens don't go to dead bodies, family disturbances where the "victim" suddenly turns on you when she sees the breadwinner going to jail, holding a 15 year old girl while she bleeds to death because you can't stop the bleeding, and the ambulance is 20 minutes away, and trying to get to you, but just is not going to make it.   
 

 


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