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Firearms of note and ridicule


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#3761 Markus Becker

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Posted 19 May 2018 - 0642 AM


 

 

 

 

I asked about a new firearm in .30 carbine cartridge. Something more in the size of a an MP5/10 in 10mm for example to have more power than 9 Para, but keeping the small size. M1 carbines were very widespread, so was their ammuniton. Why has nobody designed a new gun in the same caliber as replacement? a full size AR-15/M16 is a rather long pole and can be unwieldy when used in a police car for example. Or inside a house.

 

 

 

The better is the enemy of the good enough? I´m currently reading "Misfire" and the author says the USAF wanted the M-16 specifically to replace the M1 Carbines. They liked the much improved lethality, better range, very flat trajectory and overall low weight(compared to battel rifles). 


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#3762 shep854

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Posted 19 May 2018 - 0944 AM

Plus, the AR pattern was new and cool and Space Age! while the M1/2s were seen as tired and clunky.
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#3763 Chris Werb

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Posted 20 May 2018 - 1323 PM

I confess I'm not really getting the basic premise of this thread. What does the .30 M1 carbine chambering offer that either the 9x19 or 5.56x45 don't? Surely if it was a better solution to a real world problem there would have been lots of follow on firearms designed and purchased in the chambering. That this did not happen indicates to me that it was clearly considered inferior to readily available alternatives.

On the other hand, if you had to defend yourself with one...

https://youtu.be/N4NHSMcnSd8
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#3764 Markus Becker

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Posted 21 May 2018 - 0616 AM

When did police departments replace their M1s? I once saw a photo of an American cop with one that was taken in the early 80s. Late enough to have a wide variety of light semi auto rifles and 5.56 ammo to choose from, isn't it?

Impressive performance even with .30 standard ammo.
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#3765 bojan

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Posted 21 May 2018 - 0624 AM

My guess is that various rural police departments just kept "stuff that works" since it was not used that often. Same happened here, only in the mid 90s did a police ditch Beretta and Thompson SMGs (M56s lasted until early 2000), even if MP-5s were available since early '80s at least.


Edited by bojan, 21 May 2018 - 1104 AM.

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#3766 shep854

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Posted 21 May 2018 - 0756 AM

For its purpose in the 1940s, to supplement a pistol, it was considered pretty good.  In the inevitable comparison to the M1 Rifle, it really is pretty weak.

Nowadays, it's mostly nostalgia.  For a while, carbine ammo was fairly rare and expensive.


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#3767 bojan

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Posted 21 May 2018 - 0935 AM

M1 Carbine was used probably as much as Garand, if not more. Note that .30 Rifle includes both M1, BAR and sniper rifles.

average_ammo_expenditure.jpg


Edited by bojan, 21 May 2018 - 0938 AM.

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#3768 Panzermann

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Posted 21 May 2018 - 1024 AM

Wow. GIs were literally spraying and praying with their grease guns. :blink:

 

My guess is that various rural police departments just kept "stuff that works" since it was not used that often. Same happened here, only in the mid did a police ditch Beretta and Thompson SMGs (M56s lasted until early 2000), even if MP-5s were available since early '80s at least.

 
MP5s were expensive, especially compared to 9mm blowback SMG already in the armoury. does the swedish police still use ksp m/45 with aimpoints? In the end the blowback guns are all pretty similar and even a brand new B&T blowback is not that much different from a surplus "carl gustaf" with aimpoint and torch mounted. Now I want a Beretta Mosccetto Automatic Beretta Modelo 938 with a rail welded on top for a red dot. :D
 
 
But the point my thoughts are circling around is, that there is a hole between M1 carbine wearing out and them needning replacement and the widepsread use of the MP5 (and then later short 556 guns). From personal experience a MP5 can easily hit tennisballs at 25 & 50 m. And considereing that most M1 have horrible sights according to Hackathorn and tus n ot hitting much the MP5 was better. Also reliable magazines.  But ballistically .30 Carbine cartridge offers a bit more power than 9 Para, but keeping a similarly small size. The FBI had gone to the 10mm MP5 to get more power while staying with the compact package as well.  (which had its own issues)
 
wikipedia has ~700 J for 9 Para and 1300 J for .30 carbine.  (best millimetre has ~1000 J) So there is certainly more power there. Okay the 1300 J are from an 18" barrel. But still.
 
But nobody seems to have really bothered to design a new gun around the cartridge. Okay and then the eMbassy in London with the masked SAS and MP5 happened and then everyone wanted H&K I guess.


Edited by Panzermann, 21 May 2018 - 1025 AM.

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#3769 Chris Werb

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Posted 23 May 2018 - 1507 PM

For its purpose in the 1940s, to supplement a pistol, it was considered pretty good.  In the inevitable comparison to the M1 Rifle, it really is pretty weak.

Nowadays, it's mostly nostalgia.  For a while, carbine ammo was fairly rare and expensive.

 

And for quite a while it was also incredibly cheap.


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#3770 shep854

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Posted 23 May 2018 - 1523 PM


For its purpose in the 1940s, to supplement a pistol, it was considered pretty good.  In the inevitable comparison to the M1 Rifle, it really is pretty weak.
Nowadays, it's mostly nostalgia.  For a while, carbine ammo was fairly rare and expensive.

 
And for quite a while it was also incredibly cheap.
Was... :(
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#3771 Chris Werb

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Posted 23 May 2018 - 1725 PM

 

 

For its purpose in the 1940s, to supplement a pistol, it was considered pretty good.  In the inevitable comparison to the M1 Rifle, it really is pretty weak.
Nowadays, it's mostly nostalgia.  For a while, carbine ammo was fairly rare and expensive.

 
And for quite a while it was also incredibly cheap.
Was... :(

 

 

I can't remember the price, but I remember Charles King Sargent talking about buying 500 round sealed cans for incredibly little cash back in the day. It was cheap enough to plink with.


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#3772 shep854

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Posted 23 May 2018 - 2054 PM

Now Monarch (E. European...Ukraine?) .30 carbine steel-case ammo is around $15US for a 50rd box. I was pleasantly surprised to see it on the shelf.

Edited by shep854, 23 May 2018 - 2056 PM.

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#3773 GregShaw

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Posted Yesterday, 09:23 AM

I picked up 500x PPU 110gr FMJRN from SGAMMO in January for about $289, IIRC it was about $305 with shipping.

I believe Southern Ohio Guns has had IMI surplus .30 Carbine for a decent price, as long as you don't pay with a card.

 

All surplus ammo has dried up in the last couple years. When I started collecting milsurps in late 2012, there was a lot more surplus available. In 2013-2015 I was able to pickup 505 rds of Yugo 90s surplus 7.92x57 heavy ball, 680 rds of Romanian 70s surplus 7.92x57 light ball, about 1500 rds of Swiss GP 90 (issue ammo that is better than about any match ammo you can find), 880 rds of Hungarian 7.62x54 light ball, 980 rds of .303 HXP that I still don't have a rifle to use it in, and 3000+ rds of HXP .30 Cal M2 ball and FN .30 Cal M2 AP from the CMP. Good luck finding any of that now.

 

The only surplus I see anymore is 7.62x51, 5.56x45 and very rarely some 7.62x39. I was able to pickup 900 rds of Malaysian 7.62x51 last year, there is also some occasional European 7.62x51 that I see as well. The surplus 5.56x45 I see is usually higher priced than I can get reloadable new production .223, much less the steel cased Russian stuff. Last I checked there was still some Yugo 7.62x39 available but it's more expensive than current production steel cased Russian ammo as well as corrosive. Its probably better ammo than the Russian, but not a great deal.


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