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Germany And Its Allies.


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#1 Inhapi

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Posted 19 November 2017 - 0925 AM

Hello,

 

Could Germany have done anything to make its allies more effective, especially  on the easteren front. I know that the German army was itself short of many essential equipment. But it seems to me that the major shortage was in fighting personnel.

 

What about for example delivering a fair ratio of acceptable AT guns to the Italian, Romanian, Hungarian and Bulgarian allies ? As said before the German army was short on these itself, but would a diminished supply of these to the wehrmacht itself not be more than offset by having improved effectiveness of the allied armies, which in 1942 made up a lot of the troops on the active part of the eastern front.

 

What about sharing technical expertise (designs of weapons, tactics, schooling of troops on new weapons, improving industrial output trough standarisation....)

 

It seems to me that the Germans were more out on trying to profit from its  allies in stead of actually making them better equipped allies (compare with the western allies (mostly) who closely worked together, with for example the Polish supplying the first steps to breaking the enigma to the western allies).

 

what about sharing radar, radio, engine designs, hollow charge weapon designs etc....

 

Was Germany so distrustful of its allies ? Did they regard them as mere cannon fodder ? Did they not want to make them too strong to be better able to subjugate them in case of winning the war ?

 

Okay Romania, Bulgaria Italy and Finland did switch sides, but apart from Italy this was IMHO at a moment that the war had been completely lost and its was just a gesture of these countries of trying to save them from complete destruction. 

 

I've read somewhere that the limited "help" of Germany to Allies (tanks, AT guns, aircraft engines etc...) was effected at a very monetary high price, more on the principle to extract the maximum amount of money out of these products. Is this true ?

 

any thoughts appreciated,

 

Inhapi


Edited by Inhapi, 19 November 2017 - 0937 AM.


#2 Markus Becker

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Posted 19 November 2017 - 1225 PM

 

 

What about for example delivering a fair ratio of acceptable AT guns to the Italian, Romanian, Hungarian and Bulgarian allies ? As said before the German army was short on these itself, but would a diminished supply of these to the wehrmacht itself not be more than offset by having improved effectiveness of the allied armies, which in 1942 made up a lot of the troops on the active part of the eastern front.

 

The Germans get a bit less but in return the allies go from "horribly underequipped" to say "not well equipped". That might have made sense. 

 

 

 

What about sharing technical expertise (designs of weapons, tactics, schooling of troops on new weapons, improving industrial output trough standarisation....)

 

 

 
What kind of industry did the countries have? Hungary was making small arms during imperial times already, Romania didn't have a domestic rifle production in WW1 but was in the process of building such industries. 
 
 
It seems to me that the Germans were more out on trying to profit from its  allies in stead of actually making them better equipped allies (compare with the western allies (mostly) who closely worked together, 

 

 

The western allies had a lot more to give away thanks to their superior industrial power.

 

http://www.combinedf...om/economic.htm



#3 Inhapi

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Posted 19 November 2017 - 1246 PM

 

 

 

 

What about sharing technical expertise (designs of weapons, tactics, schooling of troops on new weapons, improving industrial output trough standarisation....)

 

 

 
What kind of industry did the countries have? Hungary was making small arms during imperial times already, Romania didn't have a domestic rifle production in WW1 but was in the process of building such industries. 
 
 
It seems to me that the Germans were more out on trying to profit from its  allies in stead of actually making them better equipped allies (compare with the western allies (mostly) who closely worked together, 

 

 

The western allies had a lot more to give away thanks to their superior industrial power.

 

http://www.combinedf...om/economic.htm

 

 

true enough for the last one. What about sending expertise and tools for setting up industry ? Note that this was in areas difficult to bomb by the western allies.

 

Inhapi



#4 Markus Becker

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Posted 19 November 2017 - 1252 PM

A few more details I found.

 

Hungary was building a modified version of their Mannlicher rifle for Germany.

 

Germany and Romania signed a (military) trade agreement and Germany delivered ammo, ‘parts for shooting’(Schießbedarf) and explosives. 100 tons in 39, 240 in 40, 11600 in 41, 4500 in 42 and 7500 in 43.

 

In September 1940 a military mission was send to Romania to help reorganize their army to meet the requirements for modern warfare. During the winter 40/41 the 5th, 6th and 13th Infantry Divisions were trained and they began forming a tank brigade.

 

The assessment of the mission was that the Romanian forces were not capable of nonindependent operations. The three reorganized divisions could be used under the right circumstances for less difficult offensive operations. The tank brigade -now a motorized/mechanized division could also undertake such operations as part of a larger German formation.

 

And last but not least an air force mission was send too. Their job was twofold. Secure the oilfields and everything else: help with the ground elements of their air force, train aircrews, AA-units, observers and communications.

 

Junkers expanded its factory at Kronstadt/Brasocv and machien tools for the manufacture of 20mm guns were delivered. 

 

 

Nothing on Bulgaria. Probably because there was even less to start with. 



#5 Burncycle360

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Posted 19 November 2017 - 2207 PM

Given prep time, foresight, and cooperation I'm sure they could have done a lot better, but even best case scenario it would have lasted right up until nukes started dropping in the European Theatre



#6 Rich

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 1354 PM

The reality may demonstrate better what was available. For instance, from June 1944 to March 1945 Germany allocated the following Panzer sales to its allies:

 

Panzer IV - 15 to Romania (of 100 total), 60 to Hungary (only 52 delivered), and 20 to Finland (only 15 delivered), earlier, 46 went to Bulgaria and 20 to Spain - 233 total of 8,505-odd produced

Panther - 5 to Hungary (of 7 total) - 7 of 6,132-odd

Tiger - 3 to Hungary (plus 10 transferred from s.Pz.Abtl. 503.) - 13 of 1,350-odd

StuG/StuH - 40 to Romania (of 119 total), 30 to Hungary (of 40 total), and 45 to Finland (of 59 total), earlier, 55 went to Bulgaria, 5 to Italy, and 10 to Spain - 288 total of 9,236-odd

PzJg 38 (t) - 50 to Hungary - 50 of 3,022-odd



#7 Adam_S

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 1656 PM

 

 

 

 

 

What about sharing technical expertise (designs of weapons, tactics, schooling of troops on new weapons, improving industrial output trough standarisation....)

 

 

 
What kind of industry did the countries have? Hungary was making small arms during imperial times already, Romania didn't have a domestic rifle production in WW1 but was in the process of building such industries. 
 
 
It seems to me that the Germans were more out on trying to profit from its  allies in stead of actually making them better equipped allies (compare with the western allies (mostly) who closely worked together, 

 

 

The western allies had a lot more to give away thanks to their superior industrial power.

 

http://www.combinedf...om/economic.htm

 

 

true enough for the last one. What about sending expertise and tools for setting up industry ? Note that this was in areas difficult to bomb by the western allies.

 

Inhapi

 

 

You'll still need steel and fossil fuels, not to mention food for the workers. All stuff that Nazi Germany was not exactly blessed with.



#8 John T

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Posted 25 November 2017 - 1620 PM

 

 

 

You'll still need steel and fossil fuels, not to mention food for the workers. All stuff that Nazi Germany was not exactly blessed with.

 

Well Rumania and Hungary where European producers of fossil fuels.
The food consumed by the workers of Germanies allies did not change if the workers produced modern arms of German specifications

rather than old arms of their own country.

 

I do not think it would have changes the outcome of the war but I think it could have delayed the inevitable, on the eastern front at least.

 

 

Cheers

/John



#9 Adam_S

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Posted 25 November 2017 - 2223 PM

Production from Romania and Hungary was pretty tiny compared with what was available to the Allies and it was already being gobbled up trying to keep the Wehrmacht going.

 

The German record of using captured industries was pretty terrible, for a number of reasons. A good example is the captured war industries in France. The Germans simply didn't have the resources to keep those factories going. They were also chronically short of rail transportation and the solution that seemed to work best for them was to concentrate industries in the Reich and move the workforce there.

 

A significant part of the German workforce was also on starvation rations, literally, especially later into the war. An issue with production in France IIRC was that rations that were theoretically sufficient to sustain a civilian population were not enough to keep a worker doing a heavy manual job going. Germany's solution of course was to literally work people to death.



#10 Markus Becker

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Posted 26 November 2017 - 1314 PM

"Germany's solution of course was to literally work people to death."

Including French and other non Slavic civilian workers?

#11 Rich

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Posted 26 November 2017 - 1410 PM

"Germany's solution of course was to literally work people to death."

Including French and other non Slavic civilian workers?

 

As of January 1944, the 1.4% of Gastarbeitnehmer comprised of German allies and neutrals (Hungary, Romania, Spain, Bulgaria, and Switzerland) were treated the same as Germans, paid, taxed, and given the benefits of German workers. About 33.8% of Gastarbeitnehmer from western Europe were taxed as Germans and theoretically paid as Germans, except that a large portion of their pay actually went to the work administration at home where it was supposedly doled out to their families, but actually lined the pockets of various officials. Benefits such as health care were spotty at best. As Germany retreated within the Reich frontiers they were treated the same as the Zwangsarbeiter from eastern Europe and military prisoners - little or no pay, little or no food, harsh working conditions, no health care, and long work days. As Hungary, Romania, and Bulgaria surrendered, their nationals working in Germany also received the same treatment...and by then the distinction for the few remaining Spanish and Swiss workers trapped in Germany was moot as well.

 

So yes, by about mid 1944, "Germany's solution of course was to literally work [all] people to death."



#12 Adam_S

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Posted 27 November 2017 - 0515 AM

It's worth bearing in mind in any discussion of German war production that the economy of 1941 was vastly different to the economy of 1944. Speer's economic miracle is generally considered to be overrated, taking advantage as it did of additional production capacity that didn't come on stream until 1943ish. In 1941, the economy was geared around short, sharp blitzkrieg campaigns, not the war of attrition that the campaign in the East became.

 

By the time that German war production was sufficient to make diverting arms to its allies a realistic proposition, those same allies were basically out of the war following disastrous losses in Southern Russia and the capitulation of Italy in 1943. To compound this, Germany was unable make good their losses in infantry, leading to a massive shortfall in manpower on the Eastern Front. Had Germany been able to produce the levels of armaments in 1941 or even 1942 that it was managing in 1944, their chances of inflicting some sort of catastrophic blow on the Soviet Union before they started running out of manpower would have been much higher.



#13 Harold Jones

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Posted 27 November 2017 - 1149 AM

Did the Germans have anything like  The Industrial College of the Armed Forces?  http://www.dtic.mil/.../u2/a276612.pdf






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