32 replies to this topic

[TOW-2]

Sigh.  Whatever it was it is no longer in my collection of books; however, I do see that "nearly half a dozen" MGM51's were fired during the Gulf War against Iraqi bunkers so assuming...3 or 4, total, taken that as gospel it was likely never deployed in SE Asia but still I do recall something about the recoil of firing a 152mm round really screwing with the sighting mechanism.  Just don't remember where I read it.

[GARGEAN]

So, after all, no better sources about HOT? Get stuck with this all-around but definitely wrong 800mm value it seems.

[Bob_Mackenzie]

800mm isn't that far off

 

DEFE15/2325 - Penetration and fragmentation of HOT warheads gives the results of British tests in 1976

 

The warhead cone diameter of HOT is given as 136mm and the stand off as 247mm (i.e. circa 2 cone diameters (CD))

 

The British tested the warhead at 2CD and at 4CD (and even more)

 

For some reason not clearly explained the warheads were spun at 10rpm, however the spinning rigs were supplied by MBB. Does HOT spin in flight?

 

2CD penetration was 721mm

4CD penetration was 780mm

 

One presumes that if the warhead was not spun the penetration would have been fractionally greater.

 

So not too far off the 800mm figure quoted

 

Cheers

 

Bob

[Chris Werb]

How could 10 rpm have any measurable effect on the HEAT performance at all?

[fmteau]

Looks like it has wave shaper. For late 1970s tech, with wave shaper 800mm might be doable, but not with this little standoff - about 3 CDs. At that standoff it is about 5.3-5.4 CDs, or about 700mm.

 

Excuse my ignorance, but what is a wave shaper?

You seems to imply this is something important, but I fail to understand its purpose.

Thanks in advance

[JWB]

 

Looks like it has wave shaper. For late 1970s tech, with wave shaper 800mm might be doable, but not with this little standoff - about 3 CDs. At that standoff it is about 5.3-5.4 CDs, or about 700mm.

 

Excuse my ignorance, but what is a wave shaper?

You seems to imply this is something important, but I fail to understand its purpose.

Thanks in advance

 

[bojan]

Piece of inert material that helps explosive collapse liner in the optimal fashion.

[GARGEAN]

800mm isn't that far off

 

DEFE15/2325 - Penetration and fragmentation of HOT warheads gives the results of British tests in 1976

 

The warhead cone diameter of HOT is given as 136mm and the stand off as 247mm (i.e. circa 2 cone diameters (CD))

 

The British tested the warhead at 2CD and at 4CD (and even more)

 

For some reason not clearly explained the warheads were spun at 10rpm, however the spinning rigs were supplied by MBB. Does HOT spin in flight?

 

2CD penetration was 721mm

4CD penetration was 780mm

 

One presumes that if the warhead was not spun the penetration would have been fractionally greater.

 

So not too far off the 800mm figure quoted

 

Cheers

 

Bob

Can you provide some source for that british tests of HOT missile? Wasn't able to find them myself.

[Nikolas93TS]

Another case in point could AT-2 Swatter missile: early variants were claimed to penetrate 500-510mm for 3М11 and 560mm for modernized 9М17.

 

I am curious as to how both sides got such high estimates. As I suggested in the first post, I still think values were expressed in mild steel for some reason. 

[bojan]

Soviet data is 460mm for 9M17, 560mm for 9M17M and 9M17P. For second one it was practically same warhead as 9M113 Konkurs, hence same penetration.

[Nikolas93TS]

Soviet data is 460mm for 9M17, 560mm for 9M17M and 9M17P. For second one it was practically same warhead as 9M113 Konkurs, hence same penetration.

 

I guess 460mm with 140mm warhead is realistic. That is 3.3 CD and sounds in line with your rule of thumb. 

 

9M17 was accepted in 1965, and 9M17M in 1967, is that right?

[bojan]

Sorry, 480mm not 460mm.

3M11 - August 30th 1960, 600-2500m, 480mm

9M17 - 1965, 600-4000m, 480mm

9M17M - 1967, 600-4000m, 560mm

9M17P - 1969, 450-4000m, 560mm

[CaptLuke]

Sigh.  Whatever it was it is no longer in my collection of books; however, I do see that "nearly half a dozen" MGM51's were fired during the Gulf War against Iraqi bunkers so assuming...3 or 4, total, taken that as gospel it was likely never deployed in SE Asia but still I do recall something about the recoil of firing a 152mm round really screwing with the sighting mechanism.  Just don't remember where I read it.

 

There's an account from the 3/73's commander in Hunnicut's Sheridan where he says one his unit's tanks fired a Shillelagh at a bunker in GW1, pretty much just because he had it in the tube at the time, not because it was the preferred round.  The commander, LTC Donnel, wrote "To my knowledge, this is the only use of the Shillelagh in combat."  So not definitive, but there you go.