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Sweden Selects Patriot


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#21 Dawes

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Posted 17 November 2017 - 1431 PM

Patriot seems to be routinely knocking down SCUD-type missiles fired into Saudi Arabia from Yeman. Of course, they may not be particularly challenging targets.


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#22 Dawes

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Posted 17 November 2017 - 1439 PM

Patriot uses SARH only for terminal approach like SM-2, so there's little warning about the attack. The radars only give away very late that the aircraft is under attack. That's one "scary" thing about it.

 

BAMSE was first and foremost a short range air defence with an astonishing effective ceiling claim and a cheap (command controlled) missile.

It would be a great complement to missiles with expensive seekers, but there are likely few suitable targets for BAMSE.

Everything that carries a radar/radio jammer might throw off the aim, the system requires line of sight between target and fire control radar and radar 'stealth' targets that would be easily visible in IIR might still be too hard to sense for the radars used. Finally, the fire control radar needs to keep looking at the target throughout the engagement. That's but a few seconds, but a shutdown due to ARM threat would break the engagement and the target might be able to triangulate the fire control radar during this time. That's troublesome if the target is a decoy drone with ESM specialised on triangulating radars or if the missile fails.

 

BAMSE is a bit of a bet; a bet that the relatively cheap system doesn't get defeated by ECM.

Other radar-centric air defence systems do similar bets, but with higher stakes and better odds.

 

 

I'm not all that familiar with Patriot's guidance properties, but (IIRC) it originally used a "Track Via Missile" concept in which the missile downlinked target data to the radar, which then provided guidance data. Presumable that's been succeeded by a newer design?


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#23 Chris Werb

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Posted 17 November 2017 - 1441 PM

In a shooting war with Russia, a Patriot battery can expect to also be targeted by systems that don't rely on ARM homing. I'm not saying that decoy emitters, reflectors etc. are a bad thing though.


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#24 Dawes

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Posted 17 November 2017 - 1541 PM

Looks like Poland finally took the plunge. Does seem a bit pricey, though:

 

http://www.dsca.mil/...oland_17-67.pdf


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#25 Tantalwz88

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Posted 17 November 2017 - 1859 PM

Looks like Poland finally took the plunge. Does seem a bit pricey, though:

 

http://www.dsca.mil/...oland_17-67.pdf

The magic word is "offset" and shite load of PAC-3 MSE missiles for all 8 batteries.And the price probably will be cheaper like 8 billion dollars instead of 10,5.


Edited by Tantalwz88, 17 November 2017 - 1900 PM.

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#26 Dawes

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 1017 AM

What is "Configuration 3+"?


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#27 Tantalwz88

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 1120 AM

What is "Configuration 3+"?

IBCS and SkyCeptor missile based on Israel Stunner in near future if we Polish MOD doesn't f-up.


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#28 wendist

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Posted 04 August 2018 - 1457 PM

The deal for Patriot missiles for Sweden has gone one step further.

 

https://sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel.aspx?programid=2054&artikel=7011688 


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#29 Dawes

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Posted 04 August 2018 - 1949 PM

What is Sweden's current SAM capability?


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#30 Olof Larsson

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Posted 05 August 2018 - 0450 AM

What is Sweden's current SAM capability?

 

8 HAWK-launchers, and a few RB70 for a country the size of Germany and Austria combined. The plan is for the RB70's to be replaced by truck launched IRIS-T (with the missiles taken from the Air Force stocks) and Patriot (with virtually no missiles for the foreseeable future) We used to have Bloodhound missiles as well (1961-1978) but they were sold of with no replacement.


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#31 Chris Werb

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Posted 05 August 2018 - 0459 AM

How many systems does eight launchers equate to? What happened to the RBS-23 Bamse? Its unfortunate that RBS70 is being replaced rather than supplemented as it is an excellent VSHORAD system. It fills a different niche to a vehicle mounted IR guided SHORAD system which will doubtless be purchased in tiny numbers. The biggest problem with Patriot is it's fixed location. It would doubtless be toast within hours of a conflict breaking out. Back in the 70s survivability against an overwhelmingly numerically suoerior opponent was critically important. Sweden even went to the lengths of having AD radars that retracted underground. That would obviously be useless in an era of PGMs, but having Patriot on vehicles and playing a shell game with them would be an option. Patriot obviously isn't the ideal system for that approach, but it would be better than nothing.
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#32 glappkaeft

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Posted 05 August 2018 - 0907 AM

What happened to the RBS-23 Bamse?


The radar and control unit UndE 23 is in service (with non BAMSE systems) but the missile unit EldE 23 is not. Six EldE23 where acquire and three of them make up a demonstration unit (or at least used to). The other three are used by the Defence Materiel Administration and SAAB.

Edited by glappkaeft, 05 August 2018 - 0909 AM.

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#33 wendist

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Posted 05 August 2018 - 0932 AM

We would never be able to cover our territory under a SAM umbrella anyway. The best area air defence system we have is the JAS-39. The older SAM systems (Bloodhounds and Hawks) where not bought in any greater numbers either, neither will the Patriots be. The point with them was to have the capability to defend a few top priority targets. With the Patriot buy there is also a fair bit of politics involved, we buy expensive stuff from the US in the hope that should we need help they will consider it to be in their interest to help us.


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#34 Chris Werb

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Posted 05 August 2018 - 1012 AM

The problem is the batteries themselves become very high value targets. Thats possibly why you didnt bother replacing the essentially static Bloodhound.
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#35 Dawes

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Posted 05 August 2018 - 1027 AM

Wouldn't MEADS have been a more mobile/relocatable option?


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#36 BJE

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Posted 05 August 2018 - 1149 AM

The problem is the batteries themselves become very high value targets. Thats possibly why you didnt bother replacing the essentially static Bloodhound.

 

We retired Bloodhound purely because of cost. We were actually developing a more mobile version of it at the time of retirement, and what we had were used in a far different way than the UK. Each battery had at least three prepared positions, the locations were top secret and they were never used in peacetime. The plan was to relocate to one of those during mobilization and then to relocate immediately after an engagement.


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#37 Chris Werb

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Posted 05 August 2018 - 1640 PM

Mk2 Bloodhound was relocatable rather than mobile. I'd love to see more info on a proposed truly mobile version.
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#38 DB

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Posted 06 August 2018 - 0537 AM

I don't really buy the idea that having an air defence system makes you more of a target. It makes you a more expensive target, but it's not going to make things worse.

So saying that the Patriot system causes a problem because they are high value (additional) targets isn't really true - you have the problem already in that your country is targeted. You've added more targets, for sure, but even as bullet magnets they are serving a purpose - soaking up enemy resources.
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#39 Chris Werb

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Posted 06 August 2018 - 1212 PM

No, that's not what I meant. An area SAM system is a pretty huge investment and a small number of systems can obviously cause an attacker a lot if problems. That also means an attacker will prioritise attacking those systems which means a good deal of thought and effort needs to be put into protecting the systems themselves by passive and active means. A truly mobile system, particularly a sensor agnostic one, would facilitate that. We have come a long way since WW2 when strategic bombing typically did not feature HAA batteries as priority targets for obvious reasons.
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#40 Josh

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Posted 06 August 2018 - 1247 PM

Minimally some blow up decoys, fake emitters, and a number of pre-surveyed/dug out sites seems to be wise purchase to go with your pricey SAM system. To some extent though an MIM-104 site is going to be its own best defender. Anything you throw at it is going to be a head on in envelope shot. Against cheap short ranged PGMs, that is a losing battle, but against long ranged cruise and ballistic missiles, and to some extent smaller ARMs, the effort spent to engaging the SAM site proper will have a high cost if the only effective method is saturation.

Clearly that doesn't apply if the weapons employed fall completely out of envelope of the SAM system, which some have indicated Iskander does. I think there won't be a final answer to that question in open source.
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