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Georgia Wants Javelins


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#1 Dawes

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 1914 PM

Is this considered to be a significant quantity?:

 

http://www.dsca.mil/...orgia_17-59.pdf


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#2 R011

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 2111 PM

Could lead to an arms race. First Georgia, then Alabama. If Florida gets involved, God help us all!
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#3 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 21 November 2017 - 0503 AM

Behave. :D

 

Thanks Dawes, thats very interesting. Looks about enough to equip about 6 battalions, if you are just judging on firing units.


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#4 FALightFighter

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Posted 21 November 2017 - 0652 AM

In the US Army (USMC is different) a company has 6 javelins, 2/platoon. So a battalion has at least 18- there are some in the weapons company of IBCT infantry battalions, too. 72 launch units, including 2 spares, is ~3 battalions worth at that scale. I don't know how Georgian infantry are organized. 


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#5 KV7

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Posted 21 November 2017 - 0714 AM

In the US Army (USMC is different) a company has 6 javelins, 2/platoon. So a battalion has at least 18- there are some in the weapons company of IBCT infantry battalions, too. 72 launch units, including 2 spares, is ~3 battalions worth at that scale. I don't know how Georgian infantry are organized. 

Really it is that dense ?


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#6 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 21 November 2017 - 0728 AM

In the US Army (USMC is different) a company has 6 javelins, 2/platoon. So a battalion has at least 18- there are some in the weapons company of IBCT infantry battalions, too. 72 launch units, including 2 spares, is ~3 battalions worth at that scale. I don't know how Georgian infantry are organized. 

 

Yeah, we have about 11-12 a battalion, which seemed about common for European armies using similar systems. During the Cold war when we had Milan, we had 24 firing posts to a battalion. Which perhaps says less about how more effective Javelin is, than how much it costs.

 

18, is that the same in Stryker battalions?


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#7 KV7

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Posted 21 November 2017 - 0839 AM

 

In the US Army (USMC is different) a company has 6 javelins, 2/platoon. So a battalion has at least 18- there are some in the weapons company of IBCT infantry battalions, too. 72 launch units, including 2 spares, is ~3 battalions worth at that scale. I don't know how Georgian infantry are organized. 

 

Yeah, we have about 11-12 a battalion, which seemed about common for European armies using similar systems. During the Cold war when we had Milan, we had 24 firing posts to a battalion. Which perhaps says less about how more effective Javelin is, than how much it costs.

 

18, is that the same in Stryker battalions?

Fair, I thought it was even thinner, I would have guessed maybe two teams at the company level; i.e  3 rifle platoons plus a section of ATGM, HMG, and 81mm Mortar at company level.

 


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#8 rohala

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Posted 21 November 2017 - 0909 AM

In the US Army (USMC is different) a company has 6 javelins, 2/platoon. So a battalion has at least 18- there are some in the weapons company of IBCT infantry battalions, too. 72 launch units, including 2 spares, is ~3 battalions worth at that scale. I don't know how Georgian infantry are organized.

 
Yeah, we have about 11-12 a battalion, which seemed about common for European armies using similar systems. During the Cold war when we had Milan, we had 24 firing posts to a battalion. Which perhaps says less about how more effective Javelin is, than how much it costs.
 
18, is that the same in Stryker battalions?

Fair, I thought it was even thinner, I would have guessed maybe two teams at the company level; i.e  3 rifle platoons plus a section of ATGM, HMG, and 81mm Mortar at company level.

how do you mean the terms 'teams' and 'section'?
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#9 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 21 November 2017 - 0943 AM

 

 

In the US Army (USMC is different) a company has 6 javelins, 2/platoon. So a battalion has at least 18- there are some in the weapons company of IBCT infantry battalions, too. 72 launch units, including 2 spares, is ~3 battalions worth at that scale. I don't know how Georgian infantry are organized. 

 

Yeah, we have about 11-12 a battalion, which seemed about common for European armies using similar systems. During the Cold war when we had Milan, we had 24 firing posts to a battalion. Which perhaps says less about how more effective Javelin is, than how much it costs.

 

18, is that the same in Stryker battalions?

Fair, I thought it was even thinner, I would have guessed maybe two teams at the company level; i.e  3 rifle platoons plus a section of ATGM, HMG, and 81mm Mortar at company level.

 

 

 

I get the impression Russia (like the USSR) devolved ATGMs to the fighting companies. We do things a bit differently, we have a weapons company with an antitank platoon, though they will I guess mix and match as the tactical situation demands.

 

One of the interesting things I learned from Combat Mission Shock Force, the Americans have the firing posts and missiles actually in section vehicles. So Im wondering if it came down to it, they might actually have more than 18 to a battalion, thats just the 'official' figure.


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#10 bojan

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Posted 21 November 2017 - 0951 AM

Fair, I thought it was even thinner, I would have guessed maybe two teams at the company level; i.e  3 rifle platoons plus a section of ATGM, HMG, and 81mm Mortar at company level.

 

IIRC US light companies don't have 81, they use 60mm mortars. IIRC HMGs (.50) are with Co HQ.

Again IIRC (it was posted previously) plt has support section, with 2 x M240 and 2 x Javelin.

This is probably the best org for such low range (for today's conditions) ATGM. Only thing maybe missing is a reusable AT launcher at Plt HQ.

IIRC Striker Company has 1 Javelin launcher per vehicle.

 

Compared to that, Russian motor co has 3 x Metis/Metis-M at weapon plt of the company, but they have RPG-7 in every rifle section.


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#11 bojan

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Posted 21 November 2017 - 0954 AM

In the US Army (USMC is different) a company has 6 javelins, 2/platoon. So a battalion has at least 18- there are some in the weapons company of IBCT infantry battalions, too. 72 launch units, including 2 spares, is ~3 battalions worth at that scale. I don't know how Georgian infantry are organized. 

They use what is basically Soviet org with 3 x rifle section per plt, 3 x rifle plt + weapon plt per Co. Weapon Plt has 3 x Metis (2 x for "light" infantry), which is what Javelin will most probably replace.


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#12 KV7

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Posted 21 November 2017 - 1102 AM

 

how do you mean the terms 'teams' and 'section'


'Team' is one crew served weapon and their crew, 'section' is usually 2-4 teams.


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#13 KV7

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Posted 21 November 2017 - 1832 PM

 

Fair, I thought it was even thinner, I would have guessed maybe two teams at the company level; i.e  3 rifle platoons plus a section of ATGM, HMG, and 81mm Mortar at company level.

 

IIRC US light companies don't have 81, they use 60mm mortars. IIRC HMGs (.50) are with Co HQ.

Again IIRC (it was posted previously) plt has support section, with 2 x M240 and 2 x Javelin.

This is probably the best org for such low range (for today's conditions) ATGM. Only thing maybe missing is a reusable AT launcher at Plt HQ.

IIRC Striker Company has 1 Javelin launcher per vehicle.

 

Compared to that, Russian motor co has 3 x Metis/Metis-M at weapon plt of the company, but they have RPG-7 in every rifle section.

 

It seems a waste putting ATGM at the platoon level, because very often you will want to position the rifle squads in some position (advancing through a wood or urban area, holding a choke point or buildings etc) which affords no good field of fire for the ATGM. Better to have the team sitting back covering a wide area under command from company HQ.


Edited by KV7, 21 November 2017 - 1832 PM.

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#14 FALightFighter

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Posted 21 November 2017 - 2036 PM

Conventional US Army (not SOF) has three types of infantry:

 

1- Infantry Brigade Combat Teams have infantry battalions, with 3 rifle companies and a weapons company. IBCT rifle companies have three rifle platoons and a 60mm mortar section. Rifle platoon has three rifle squads and a weapons squad. Weapons squad has two two-man Javelin teams. Weapons company has four assault platoons. I believe that each assault platoon has 2 Javelins, for an additional 8 Javelins. Total: 6 x Javelins/company; 26 Javelins/battalion.

 

2- Stryker Brigade Combat Teams have Stryker infantry battalions, with 3 rifle companies. SBCT rifle companies have three rifle platoons and a mortar section, with two crews and four mortars- 2 60mm and 2 120mm. Rifle platoons have three rifle squads and a weapons squad. Each rifle squad has a Javelin. Total: 9 x Javelins/company; 27 Javelins/battalion.

 

3- Armored Brigade Combat Teams have combined arms battalions, with either one or two mechanized infantry companies (and, conversely, two or one tank companies). Each mechanized infantry company has three rifle platoons. Each rifle platoon has three rifle squads. Each rifle squad has a Javelin. Total: 9 x Javelins/company; 9 or 18 Javelins/battalion (depending on whether the battalion is 2 mech and 1 tank, or 1 mech and 2 tank).


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#15 KV7

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Posted 21 November 2017 - 2056 PM

Conventional US Army (not SOF) has three types of infantry:

 

1- Infantry Brigade Combat Teams have infantry battalions, with 3 rifle companies and a weapons company. IBCT rifle companies have three rifle platoons and a 60mm mortar section. Rifle platoon has three rifle squads and a weapons squad. Weapons squad has two two-man Javelin teams. Weapons company has four assault platoons. I believe that each assault platoon has 2 Javelins, for an additional 8 Javelins. Total: 6 x Javelins/company; 26 Javelins/battalion.

 

2- Stryker Brigade Combat Teams have Stryker infantry battalions, with 3 rifle companies. SBCT rifle companies have three rifle platoons and a mortar section, with two crews and four mortars- 2 60mm and 2 120mm. Rifle platoons have three rifle squads and a weapons squad. Each rifle squad has a Javelin. Total: 9 x Javelins/company; 27 Javelins/battalion.

 

3- Armored Brigade Combat Teams have combined arms battalions, with either one or two mechanized infantry companies (and, conversely, two or one tank companies). Each mechanized infantry company has three rifle platoons. Each rifle platoon has three rifle squads. Each rifle squad has a Javelin. Total: 9 x Javelins/company; 9 or 18 Javelins/battalion (depending on whether the battalion is 2 mech and 1 tank, or 1 mech and 2 tank).

The assault platoons are motorised ?
 


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#16 FALightFighter

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Posted 22 November 2017 - 0657 AM

Yes, assault platoons are HMMWV mounted. IIRC, they have 2 or 3 TOW, 2 Javelin, 2 MK19, and 2 M2 .50cal for 4 or 5 trucks/crews. This is the evolution of the old TOW companies in the airborne/air assault infantry battalions.


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#17 KV7

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Posted 22 November 2017 - 1043 AM

Right so mortorised support platoon.

Does the company get any recce assets, or is that brigade level ?


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#18 Chris Werb

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Posted 22 November 2017 - 1814 PM

 

In the US Army (USMC is different) a company has 6 javelins, 2/platoon. So a battalion has at least 18- there are some in the weapons company of IBCT infantry battalions, too. 72 launch units, including 2 spares, is ~3 battalions worth at that scale. I don't know how Georgian infantry are organized. 

 

During the Cold war when we had Milan, we had 24 firing posts to a battalion.

 

 

I'm sure some battalions, particularly TA had either a lot less or none at all. Is 24 the number the battalions in 24 Airmobile Brigade had? It seems an awfully high number. This ORBAT site is interesting: http://www.fireandfu...odcwbritish.pdf


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#19 lastdingo

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Posted 23 November 2017 - 0250 AM

Georgia appears to have a slightly larger qty of Javelin CLUs and missiles in service already.

 

The PDF claims that this would not alter the military balance in the region. I suppose every arms import is pointless if it doesn't do such a thing ceteris paribus.

 

410 Javelin missiles and 72 CLUs would easily suffice to dominate a small battlefield as in the South Ossetia War prior to the Russian breakthrough.

Such a small battlefield could be saturated with multispectral smoke for just long enough to enable a breakthrough, though.

 

The quantity would not do much in a goegraphically larger conflict save for slowly attriting the opposing T-xx/BMP/BTR forces a bit.

 

The systems and munitions are expensive enough that the sales are often tailored to equip some active battalions, with none left for reserves or 'rear' units. Sometimes the quantity isn't even satisfactory for all active infantry battalions. I suppose a mix with cheaper (old) ATGMs (SACLOS, LBR) make sense for forces that don't drown in money. The old ATGMs are still fine against ordinary BMP & BTR targets, infantry in buildings, flank shots on mobility-killed T-xx et cetera.


Edited by lastdingo, 23 November 2017 - 0253 AM.

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#20 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 23 November 2017 - 0324 AM

 

 

In the US Army (USMC is different) a company has 6 javelins, 2/platoon. So a battalion has at least 18- there are some in the weapons company of IBCT infantry battalions, too. 72 launch units, including 2 spares, is ~3 battalions worth at that scale. I don't know how Georgian infantry are organized. 

 

During the Cold war when we had Milan, we had 24 firing posts to a battalion.

 

 

I'm sure some battalions, particularly TA had either a lot less or none at all. Is 24 the number the battalions in 24 Airmobile Brigade had? It seems an awfully high number. This ORBAT site is interesting: http://www.fireandfu...odcwbritish.pdf

 

 

Ive got a feeling 24 Airmobile, in line with its armour stopping role, had enhanced establishment of Milans. I think if memory serves as high as 48 to a battalion. But the usual for BAOR battalions was 24. I think a feeling home defence battalions had 12, but the usual would have been 6 wombats.

 

Not sure about the Commando or Parachute Brigades. Ive a feeling they started off at 12 and upped to 24, but I cant swear to it.

 

 

Im surprised Georgia still has a Soviet based establishment, in line with their having fought in Afghanistan and their trying to get into NATO for donkeys years.


Edited by Stuart Galbraith, 23 November 2017 - 0325 AM.

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