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The Holocaust Just Got More Shocking


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#41 swerve

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 0822 AM

Another chilling book which I think is very good, & supplements Bloodlands well (though there is, of course, some overlap) is Hitler's Empire: Nazi Rule in Occupied Europe (Allen Lane, 2008) by Mark Mazower.


I took a holocaust class and the rabbi teaching it said "we jews are the yellow canary in the mineshaft."

Hit the nail on the head. Thanks for that. I'll remember it.

Edited by swerve, 05 March 2013 - 0834 AM.

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#42 swerve

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 0833 AM

... Collaboration seems to have been rife in Poland im sorry to say, at least in the area around Torun (the Germans called it Thorn), which was originally a Prussian territory pre WW1. Possibly that has some bearing on it, possibly not....

IIRC it was in a region where the local boss (a man with almost absolute powers) was keen, for practical reasons, to turn as many Poles as possible into Germans. Under such a regime collaboration would give you a damn good chance of being turned into a "German" (albeit a lower status one), which meant you had legal rights (you couldn't be arbitrarily shot by any German soldier or policeman, for example), safety from deportation eastwards & a bigger ration. Worth it, eh?
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#43 Max H

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 0915 AM

It was much more general than you think, they were even informing on British POWS to the German authorities, a bit trying for them as they were only in Poland due to fighting on their behalf.


The same happened in France, more commonly in the Vichy bit. Evidently they didn't really appreciate the dire straights they were in.
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#44 shep854

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 0924 AM

"I kind of understand much better now why my Grandfather didnt want to be liberated by the Soviets..."--Stuart Galbraith
I've read accounts of American POWs running west after everything fell apart for the Germans to avoid Soviet 'liberation'. Seems they heard some nasty rumors.

Edited by shep854, 05 March 2013 - 0924 AM.

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#45 Dave Clark

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 0927 AM

**SNIP**
I kind of understand much better now why my Grandfather didn't want to be liberated by the Soviets....


An interesting example of this is cited by Duffy.

Help was forthcoming from some remarkable quarters. Eighteen French prisoners of war were among the fifty-six people murdered by the Russians at Krenau in East Prussia, and for a large number of ex-Allied soldiers the prospect of 'liberation' became distinctly unappealing.

. . .

The same Panzer lieutenant tells in circumstantial detail the story of thirty-two British officer prisoners of war who had been abandoned by the Germans in the camp at Schlossberg in easternmost East Prussia. The Russians tried to transport them east to some unspecified destination, but the British broke free and made their way across the width of East Prussia until they reached the 35th Panzer Regiment of the 4th Panzer Division at Heiderode:

In the polite English way, and with all proper courtesy, they emphasised that they wanted to come back and stay with us. Without any prompting they assured us that, if necessary, they would be willing to fight on the German side.

We had been sunk in gloom, and you may imagine how their request gave a mighty boost to our morale. Naturally we took them in, and we willingly shared our rations and cigarettes.


It transpired that four of the party had been captured by the 4th Panzer Division at Béthune in 1940. The last that was seen of the officers was in late March or early April, when they were waiting with thousands of German soldiers and civilians to be shipped from Oxhöft (Schäuffler, 1979, 119-20; see also Schäuffler, 1973, 245). This episode deserves further investigation.


Amazingly enough the inmates of Stutthof concentration camp (on the Vistula delta) preferred to wait for evacuation to Schleswig-Holstein rather than taking their chances with the Russians.

Duffy, Christopher. Red Storm on the Reich. Atheneum, New York, 1991. ISBN 0-689-12092-3
**pages 278-79**
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#46 shep854

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 0942 AM

What's really chilling is that the Germans were considered rather humane in their POW treatment, compared to the Japanese... :mellow:
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#47 RETAC21

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 1006 AM

Incidentally, does anyone know if the word for English is 'angliski' in Russian AND Polish? Just curious, something I said to him once made him change the subject. I thought it was contact with the Soviet POWs that made him remember something he would rather forget, but It suddenly occurred to me it may be the same in Polish as well.


Polish: angielski
Russian: angliyskiy

Both are close enough that an English ear may confuse them.
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#48 RETAC21

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 1018 AM

To be fair, those at the camps and those at the front were different doctors, I doubt that any of the camp's "doctors" would end up at the front or the PoW camps.
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#49 Dave Clark

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 1048 AM

Stuart, do you have any idea which camp your grandfather was in at Thorn/Torun?

Was it Stalag XXA (in a series of old Prussian forts)?
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#50 Colin

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 1244 PM

What's really chilling is that the Germans were considered rather humane in their POW treatment, compared to the Japanese... :mellow:


Oddly enough the Japanese seemed to treat Jews far better than the Germans. In fact diplomatic staff in Berlin helped many Jews escape and to come to Japan, mainly ones with technical backgrounds.
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#51 Dave Clark

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 1311 PM

Stuart, you might find this interesting

http://www.gps-pract...stalag-20a.html
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#52 urbanoid

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 1319 PM

Oddly enough the Japanese seemed to treat Jews far better than the Germans. In fact diplomatic staff in Berlin helped many Jews escape and to come to Japan, mainly ones with technical backgrounds.


Japanese Vice-Consul in Lithuania Chiune Sugihara in cooperation with two Polish officers (Cpt. Jakubianiec and Lt. Daszkiewicz) saved some 6,000 Jews by giving them Japanese visas and organizing their travel to Japan (via USSR).
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#53 Dave Clark

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 1523 PM

Stuart,

check your PMs
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#54 Dave Clark

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 1352 PM

Another chilling book which I think is very good, & supplements Bloodlands well (though there is, of course, some overlap) is Hitler's Empire: Nazi Rule in Occupied Europe (Allen Lane, 2008) by Mark Mazower.
**SNIP**


A further chilling book which takes the Bloodlands theme into the immediate post-war period (including discussion of western Europe and the Balkans) is

Lowe, Keith. Savage Continent: Europe in the Aftermath of World War II. Viking, London, 2012. ISBN 978-0-670-91746-4
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#55 Sardaukar

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 0851 AM

One additional tidbit...Nazis had some ideas about Finns too....considered "not-really Aryans" :o
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#56 Sardaukar

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 0859 AM

double tap

Edited by Sardaukar, 08 March 2013 - 0859 AM.

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#57 shep854

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 0924 AM

One additional tidbit...Nazis had some ideas about Finns too....considered "not-really Aryans" :o

Also, didn't Finns have something of an attitude problem regarding 'Master Races'? ;)

Edited by shep854, 08 March 2013 - 0925 AM.

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#58 Sardaukar

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 0953 AM


One additional tidbit...Nazis had some ideas about Finns too....considered "not-really Aryans" :o

Also, didn't Finns have something of an attitude problem regarding 'Master Races'? ;)


Field synagogue next to Waffen-SS Division Nord might have told them that. Same with telling Himmler that "Finns do not have Jewish problem" ;)
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#59 Brian Kennedy

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 1950 PM

Was it because of the slanty eyes?
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#60 Roman Alymov

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Posted 19 March 2019 - 1434 PM

Probably this old thread is the best for it: Soviet intelligence report about German camps in Auschwitz region in June 1944 (mostly military targets, for obvious reasons). Interesting German command orders warning on American aviation strikes mentioned

54220589_1493916527406945_14436521959699

54437292_1493916740740257_89355246987714


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