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New French Army Rifle - Hk416?


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#21 seahawk

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 0948 AM

Let me put it that way. Suggesting to fund anything HK related is not a career enhancing move at the moment in the German MoD.



#22 Panzermann

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 1103 AM


I have brought that up as making sense, and written it into various texts for my boss pointing to efforts for more interoperability in the French-German Brigade etc., but not heard it from any MoD figure. In fact I thought various publications about the issue hinted at a preference for the SIG MCX, possibly based upon it not being from HK after the bad blood created by the G36 pseudo-affair; but I would hope the eventual decision will be made at least mostly based upon performance meeting requirements. I'm pretty certain the MoD won't pay HK to design an all-new rifle at any rate.

 
It took some time to figure out where I got this notion, but I believe it's this article, which someone posted on another forum I frequent. That said, the spokesperson from the German MoD, who is mentioned in the article, didn't outright state that they should buy the French rifle. Only that they were interested in the process, so that was a mistake on my part. However, as this spokesperson isn't mentioned by name, one should probably take even that with a grain of salt.

on Offiziere.ch was this very interesting article linked:

http://www.dsi-presse.com/?p=7574

about how the FAMAS came to be. The FAL had been rejected because the belgians baught F-16 and the HK33, well was german. :D I did not know that at one point MAS produced an M16 model. Interesting. Article is in french.

#23 Panzermann

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 1106 AM

Let me put it that way. Suggesting to fund anything HK related is not a career enhancing move at the moment in the German MoD.


Because no one there is going to admit being wrong in the "G36 scandal".

#24 bojan

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 1607 PM

 

on Offiziere.ch was this very interesting article linked:

http://www.dsi-presse.com/?p=7574

about how the FAMAS came to be. The FAL had been rejected because the belgians baught F-16 and the HK33, well was german. :D I did not know that at one point MAS produced an M16 model. Interesting. Article is in french.

 

They made Sig-540 series also, which was used by French marine units for a while.



#25 Panzermann

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 1710 PM


 on Offiziere.ch was this very interesting article linked:

http://www.dsi-presse.com/?p=7574

about how the FAMAS came to be. The FAL had been rejected because the belgians baught F-16 and the HK33, well was german. :D I did not know that at one point MAS produced an M16 model. Interesting. Article is in french.
 

They made Sig-540 series also, which was used by French marine units for a while.

Yes. Is also mentioned in the article.
In small batches they have bought all manner of different rifles over the years to supplement their main rifle. In the 70ies the MAS 49/58 was really outdated. I think the Gendarmerie or Police used HK33 for some time. Probably still do.

But the reasons given for not buying FN CAL (the Belgians did not buy Mirage) or the HK33 (german) or license produce M16 (american) are funny. :D

The article has many more details and was actually readable with online translator.


Also the problems with exporting the famas because of the finicky barrel and chamber of the F1 model. Corrected with the G1 (2, 3) models later, but too few too late. But really, it cannot have seen too difficult to put a different barrel in modifying the timing to use more mainstream 556 cartridges.

#26 Chris Werb

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 1814 PM

Had the Cold War not ended, would the G11 have been fielded in numbers?



#27 GARGEAN

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Posted 01 September 2016 - 1821 PM

Had the Cold War not ended, would the G11 have been fielded in numbers?

Doubtful. Some use - yes, but not standart issue. It was too costly and too complicated, and, what's more important, don't used standart NATO ammunition. Just like Steyr ACR.



#28 Panzermann

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Posted 02 September 2016 - 0629 AM


Had the Cold War not ended, would the G11 have been fielded in numbers?

Doubtful. Some use - yes, but not standart issue. It was too costly and too complicated, and, what's more important, don't used standart NATO ammunition. Just like Steyr ACR.

As a "cheaper" alternative for REMF troops the G41 has been developed. And as a fail save, should the G11 not work out.

But looking at the exteriour ballistics of the 4,73 × 33 mm are not really impressive.

How good the clockwork internals would have worked in actual field use by conscripts is at anyone's guess.

#29 seahawk

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Posted 02 September 2016 - 0943 AM

 

Let me put it that way. Suggesting to fund anything HK related is not a career enhancing move at the moment in the German MoD.


Because no one there is going to admit being wrong in the "G36 scandal".

 

 

Mostly because supporting the firm that smacked your ass in court is usually not seen as sharing enough esprit de corps.

 

 

http://www.dw.com/en...koch/a-19522739



#30 Gavin-Phillips

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Posted 05 September 2016 - 1140 AM

 

Had the Cold War not ended, would the G11 have been fielded in numbers?

Doubtful. Some use - yes, but not standart issue. It was too costly and too complicated, and, what's more important, don't used standart NATO ammunition. Just like Steyr ACR.

 

Interesting you should mention that one, I have only just recently heard about it and seen one or two pictures of (I'm guessing) the prototype?  Very strange looking assault rifle.

 

The Belgian company, FN, has had some success with their P90 (5.7mm) and H&K with their MP7 (4.6mm).  That doesn't appear to be standard NATO ammunition either, but the weapons are still available.  However having what could perhaps be called a curious non-standard ammunition size wouldn't have helped sales either. 

 

Is that what killed off the ACR or were there other factors too?



#31 Panzermann

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Posted 05 September 2016 - 1233 PM

The Steyr ACR, as well as a AR-15 derivative by Colt, a version of the H&K G11 and a few others took part in a US Army project named "Advanced Combat Rifle" looking for the next leap ahead in rifle technology. With caseless, duplex rounds, flechette and more esoteric entries.

The Steyr rifle was designed for this exact competition and wasn't continued after the project ended.


https://en.wikipedia...ed_Combat_Rifle

#32 GARGEAN

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Posted 05 September 2016 - 1540 PM

 

Interesting you should mention that one, I have only just recently heard about it and seen one or two pictures of (I'm guessing) the prototype?  Very strange looking assault rifle.

 

The Belgian company, FN, has had some success with their P90 (5.7mm) and H&K with their MP7 (4.6mm).  That doesn't appear to be standard NATO ammunition either, but the weapons are still available.  However having what could perhaps be called a curious non-standard ammunition size wouldn't have helped sales either. 

 

Is that what killed off the ACR or were there other factors too?

 

ACR ended when competition was ended. Initial requirement was to double effectiveness of M16, and that wasn't achieved by anyone. Still, at least Steyr was VERY impressive piece of kit. More that 1.4km/sec muzzle velocity, high firerate when burst-firing, pretty light, not too big... And still, when ACR programm ended, it was considered that remaking all stocks of standart 5,56 ammunition into 5,56 polymer case flechette rounds was too costly for achieved result.

P90 and MP7 was another case. It wasn't supposed to replace army main battle rifle, instead it was made to take niche of PDW. And here it was pretty impressive: in comparison with 9mm Parabellum 5,7mm offers almost doubled MV, much better range and pretty impressive anti-armor effectiveness. And all this when P90 itself is really small, with good firerate, ergonomics and big magazine. MP7 was trying to get into same place with comparably new, but inferior round, thus it have just a bit of P90 success.


Edited by GARGEAN, 05 September 2016 - 1541 PM.


#33 Gavin-Phillips

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Posted 06 September 2016 - 1320 PM

Thank you for filling me in with those details, GARGEAN.  It is certainly appreciated.  



#34 shep854

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Posted 15 September 2016 - 0703 AM

Looking good for H&K:

http://www.thefirear...rench-decision/

 


BREAKING: Heckler Koch CONFIRMED Winner of French AIF Rifle Contract; FN to Appeal French Decision


Edited by shep854, 15 September 2016 - 0704 AM.


#35 demosthenes

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Posted 15 September 2016 - 1456 PM

And so ironically they get a weapon that's both German and American...



#36 Panzermann

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Posted 16 September 2016 - 1852 PM

And so ironically they get a weapon that's both German and American...


We should take a peek into Napoleon's coffin. He has turned definitely.

#37 Chris Werb

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 1243 PM

Looking good for H&K:

http://www.thefirear...rench-decision/

 


BREAKING: Heckler Koch CONFIRMED Winner of French AIF Rifle Contract; FN to Appeal French Decision

 

Curious as to why you put a link in to Brownells. Great company though - I've been a Brownells affiliate for four years now. :)



#38 Chris Werb

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 1246 PM

Still, at least Steyr was VERY impressive piece of kit. More that 1.4km/sec muzzle velocity, high firerate when burst-firing, pretty light, not too big... And still, when ACR programm ended, it was considered that remaking all stocks of standart 5,56 ammunition into 5,56 polymer case flechette rounds was too costly for achieved result.

 

 

I think the sabot petal danger really was an insurmountable problem though.



#39 Blunt Eversmoke

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Posted 18 September 2016 - 1146 AM

 

Still, at least Steyr was VERY impressive piece of kit. More that 1.4km/sec muzzle velocity, high firerate when burst-firing, pretty light, not too big... And still, when ACR programm ended, it was considered that remaking all stocks of standart 5,56 ammunition into 5,56 polymer case flechette rounds was too costly for achieved result.

 

 

I think the sabot petal danger really was an insurmountable problem though.

 

Was it really, though? I don't remember (having ever seen mentioned anywhere) the exact weight of the Steyr ACR sabots, so can only give AO-27 values for comparison (2.4 grams of 3mm flechette, 0.3 grams of 7.62mm sabot, flying at 1060 m/s). Soviet authorities expressed this exact concern regarding sabot petals, but tests convinced them otherwise (as long as certain a safety zone was minded by both shooter and his comrades, a zone of a size still acceptable by the military). Given the smaller caliber and weight as well as higher velocity of Steyr ACR flechettes and sabots, ACR sabot petals should lose velocity even more quickly, making for an even smaller safety zone in front of the shooter.

Still a possibility, I guess, given the somewhat different approach to soldiers' safety in the 1960s in the Soviet Union, especially compared to 1980s West, but somehow I think other reasons were the ACR's downfall, similar to the reasons of the downfall of the Russian Arrow project.

 

EDIT: Whoopsiedaisy. Edited for data.


Edited by Blunt Eversmoke, 18 September 2016 - 1257 PM.


#40 shep854

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Posted 18 September 2016 - 1654 PM

 

Looking good for H&K:

http://www.thefirear...rench-decision/

 


BREAKING: Heckler Koch CONFIRMED Winner of French AIF Rifle Contract; FN to Appeal French Decision

 

Curious as to why you put a link in to Brownells. Great company though - I've been a Brownells affiliate for four years now. :)

 

The link was imbedded in the article.  I simply cut and pasted the TFB link. :)


Edited by shep854, 18 September 2016 - 1655 PM.





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