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Does L15 Apds Have An Expiry Date?


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#21 Wiedzmin

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Posted 31 May 2017 - 0948 AM

It is mentioned that israeli hesh shells were tested, so I think israeli tank, year the report is published - 1976, the trials took place from November 1973 to June 1975 so... :)

 

Chieftain was Mk.5P produced in 1974, engine L60 №4 Mk.8A 750 hp(550 kW), btw how many "Mk" L60 have ? 

 

Mk.4A - 650bhp(485kW)

Mk.7A - 720bhp(537kW)

Mk.8A- 750 hp(550kW)

Mk.11A ?

Mk.13A ?

Mk.15A ?


Edited by Wiedzmin, 31 May 2017 - 0957 AM.

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#22 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 01 June 2017 - 0256 AM

Ive actually got a copy of what I was told was the last Chieftain manual issued, and it says the engine was the Mk13A. Im not saying there was no higher versions of that, but Im not sure by that point there was any development room left in it. I think they must have started fitting that in the Early 1980's, and as one British author noted 'Though the Tank is the Mk5, the engine is the Mk13, and many would still say its a long way from perfect'. Which is presumably why they trial fitted an MTU engine in one of them.

 

The odd thing is, when you talk to some of the people who operated them, you get a much more mixed picture of the reliablity. Bob Griffin (who used to post here as Commander) was a Chieftain crewman and gunnery instructor, and crewed a Mk2, which should in theory have been the most unreliable version operated. In actual fact he claimed his rarely broke down, largely because he followed the maintenance schedule. The suspciion is in cash strapped and overworked BAOR, not everyone did.

 

Re Centurion, from what I was reading last night we seem to have been supplying ammunition and spares to Israel still in 1973, when we called it off due to the Egyptian blockage. I was quite surprised, I thought we had cut all ties in 1967. So Yes, that they still had British ammunition I guess should be no surprise.

 

 

We keep going on about what a bonanza the 1973 war was for studying Soviet kit. Seems the reverse as also true, and the Soviets had a real haul when the Bar Lev line as overrun.


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#23 GARGEAN

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Posted 02 June 2017 - 0129 AM

Yeah that does seem to fit with what has been written elsewhere. The basic estimate before this seems to have been  something like 130mm against angled plate. Ive seen 370mm listed elsewhere, but that would appear to be against flat plate.
https://www.arrse.co...n.208423/page-4
 
The reason why I ask, I posted some time ago some data for what appeared to be an L23 test article being fired from L11, and there seemed to be a lot of variety in performance, as much as 100mm IIRC, if there is much temperature variation, or even significant barrel wear. I think the L11 was good for about 150 firing cycles and then it was pretty much scrap.
 
Basically the Soviets seem to agree with the British MOD. That had to be a first. :)
 
I dont know when this test was. I do think L15 was the standard tank killer up to about 1984, the MOD panicked about 1981 when they realised T64 was rather better than they gave it credit for.

Even better? o_O
Isn't all west shit a brick about T-64/80 at that time? Or this one was about FCS and missiles?
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#24 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 02 June 2017 - 0236 AM

Better than the M1, or the Leopard2? Well it was an excellent tank, but perhaps not. Ive actually seem some of the Brixmis footage of T64 on exercise in Europe, and I would swear it was running the same L60 engine the Chieftain was using.  It was an excellent tank, but its limitations show why they kept T72 in production and procured T80 as a replacement.

 

The T80 was an excellent tank for its era. But it only started appearing in significant numbers at the other end of the 1980's. The first one wasnt even seen in East Germany till December 1983, and as it happened, it never fully surplanted T64.

 

The real concern of T64 was its armour and its gun. The gun we found a stopgap in with stillbrew (or at least, we convinced ourselves we had) and as for the armour, we seem to have accelerated the procurement of a new generation of long rod penetrators and ATGM's. For example, BAOR took delivery of Milan3, and introduced L23 in the 1980-1984 period.. We were developing the latter since at least 1979, but its my opinion based on the timing (and the concurrent announcement of the procurement of Challenger 1) that a new perception of Soviet armoured capability drove the procurement.

 

I keep refering to this, but it appears the discovery of the neustralitz document was a bit of a game changer in perception of how good Soviet armour was.


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#25 GARGEAN

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Posted 02 June 2017 - 0420 AM

Better than the M1, or the Leopard2? Well it was an excellent tank, but perhaps not. Ive actually seem some of the Brixmis footage of T64 on exercise in Europe, and I would swear it was running the same L60 engine the Chieftain was using.  It was an excellent tank, but its limitations show why they kept T72 in production and procured T80 as a replacement.
 
The T80 was an excellent tank for its era. But it only started appearing in significant numbers at the other end of the 1980's. The first one wasnt even seen in East Germany till December 1983, and as it happened, it never fully surplanted T64.
 
The real concern of T64 was its armour and its gun. The gun we found a stopgap in with stillbrew (or at least, we convinced ourselves we had) and as for the armour, we seem to have accelerated the procurement of a new generation of long rod penetrators and ATGM's. For example, BAOR took delivery of Milan3, and introduced L23 in the 1980-1984 period.. We were developing the latter since at least 1979, but its my opinion based on the timing (and the concurrent announcement of the procurement of Challenger 1) that a new perception of Soviet armoured capability drove the procurement.
 
I keep refering to this, but it appears the discovery of the neustralitz document was a bit of a game changer in perception of how good Soviet armour was.

Was talking more about 70's, where there was no M1 or Leo 2. And what in the end so much shocked brits in T-64 above what was already known?
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#26 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 02 June 2017 - 0447 AM

 

Better than the M1, or the Leopard2? Well it was an excellent tank, but perhaps not. Ive actually seem some of the Brixmis footage of T64 on exercise in Europe, and I would swear it was running the same L60 engine the Chieftain was using.  It was an excellent tank, but its limitations show why they kept T72 in production and procured T80 as a replacement.
 
The T80 was an excellent tank for its era. But it only started appearing in significant numbers at the other end of the 1980's. The first one wasnt even seen in East Germany till December 1983, and as it happened, it never fully surplanted T64.
 
The real concern of T64 was its armour and its gun. The gun we found a stopgap in with stillbrew (or at least, we convinced ourselves we had) and as for the armour, we seem to have accelerated the procurement of a new generation of long rod penetrators and ATGM's. For example, BAOR took delivery of Milan3, and introduced L23 in the 1980-1984 period.. We were developing the latter since at least 1979, but its my opinion based on the timing (and the concurrent announcement of the procurement of Challenger 1) that a new perception of Soviet armoured capability drove the procurement.
 
I keep refering to this, but it appears the discovery of the neustralitz document was a bit of a game changer in perception of how good Soviet armour was.

Was talking more about 70's, where there was no M1 or Leo 2. And what in the end so much shocked brits in T-64 above what was already known?

 

 

T64 didnt even start arriving until about 76/77. At that point the the most modern tank in GSFG was still T62, which Chieftain and Leopard1 and M60A1, for all their flaws, had an edge on. Not a significant one Ill grant you. In actual fact, the most common tank in the Warsaw pact right till the end was T55, not even T72. Even the West Germans, the most modern Army in the Warsaw Pact,  never made a full transition to it.

 

The armour was a composite. They stumbled on a document in a garrison rubbish dump (reportedly used as toilet paper, which was in short supply in garrisons) and discovered that the T64's armour was considerably more effective against HEAT and Ap than was previously thought.

 

You could argue that the Reagan/Thatcher arms build-up was at least as mcuh responsible, but lets just say it was one among a number of catalysts.

 

 

There has been a lot of debate what this document actually was. Im told they never put details of armour in official documentations, so this might just have been a notebook someone was retaining details during a training course. It doesnt seem to have been released yet via the national archive, whatever it was.


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#27 Wiedzmin

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Posted 02 June 2017 - 1327 PM

 

We keep going on about what a bonanza the 1973 war was for studying Soviet kit. Seems the reverse as also true, and the Soviets had a real haul when the Bar Lev line as overrun.

 

Taking into account the fact that sights, engine, torsion bars, etc. from Leopard-1 were delivered to USSR, as well as some technical documentation, i think the USSR knew at least something about at least the german tech   :)


Edited by Wiedzmin, 02 June 2017 - 1329 PM.

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#28 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 03 June 2017 - 0316 AM

Yeah, there is a real interesting story there. Wasnt it something to do with components being smuggled out of Italy or something?


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#29 Wiedzmin

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Posted 03 June 2017 - 0658 AM

there no info about source of components


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#30 bojan

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Posted 03 June 2017 - 0907 AM

Romania had Leopard 1 engine and complete suspension as early as 1979.


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#31 Nikolas93TS

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Posted 04 June 2017 - 1435 PM

Yeah, there is a real interesting story there. Wasnt it something to do with components being smuggled out of Italy or something?

 

That was my theory, based on a handful of Italian parliamentary and Senate reports, particularly from the late 1980s and early 1990s.

It emerged Casalesi clan in 1977 was intercepted negotiating a tank sale, and Italian SISMI (Military Intelligence and Security Service) indicated a disassembled Leopard, ready to be shipped, at Villa Literno train station. Then again, a telephone call was intercepted in February 1986 in which Nuvoletta clan was negotiation a sale of "some" Leopard 1s with East Germany.

 

Unfortunately, that is all I could find from above mentioned public records, specifically regarding the Leopard 1. I suspect more detailed reports (including the outcomes of mentioned deals) are still classified somewhere deep in state archives. Judge Carlo Palermo was investigating the Stibam affair ( the company selling weapons to Sadam, among others) for 4 years when case was taken from him and transferred to another judge, in the moment he mentioned connections with then-ongoing Prime Minister of Italy Bettino Craxi (who will eventually see his demise for corruption in 1992). He survived an assassination attempt in 1985 and decided to retire from the judicial system, while arms traffic investigation simply stalled. Trafficking which is well known, but never investigated and eventually forgotten by the mainstream public.

 

A theory bordering wild conspiracies, but I have seen enough to suspect it might be very true. 


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#32 JWB

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Posted 04 June 2017 - 1527 PM

On a side note.Casalesi clan  :o


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#33 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 05 June 2017 - 0245 AM

 

Yeah, there is a real interesting story there. Wasnt it something to do with components being smuggled out of Italy or something?

 

That was my theory, based on a handful of Italian parliamentary and Senate reports, particularly from the late 1980s and early 1990s.

It emerged Casalesi clan in 1977 was intercepted negotiating a tank sale, and Italian SISMI (Military Intelligence and Security Service) indicated a disassembled Leopard, ready to be shipped, at Villa Literno train station. Then again, a telephone call was intercepted in February 1986 in which Nuvoletta clan was negotiation a sale of "some" Leopard 1s with East Germany.

 

Unfortunately, that is all I could find from above mentioned public records, specifically regarding the Leopard 1. I suspect more detailed reports (including the outcomes of mentioned deals) are still classified somewhere deep in state archives. Judge Carlo Palermo was investigating the Stibam affair ( the company selling weapons to Sadam, among others) for 4 years when case was taken from him and transferred to another judge, in the moment he mentioned connections with then-ongoing Prime Minister of Italy Bettino Craxi (who will eventually see his demise for corruption in 1992). He survived an assassination attempt in 1985 and decided to retire from the judicial system, while arms traffic investigation simply stalled. Trafficking which is well known, but never investigated and eventually forgotten by the mainstream public.

 

A theory bordering wild conspiracies, but I have seen enough to suspect it might be very true. 

 

 

Thank you Nikolas, that is genuinely interesting. Do let us know if you ever find anything more on it. Just dont end up sleeping with the fishes over it. :)


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#34 Wiedzmin

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 1440 PM

about L15(It is not specified what L15 exactly, L15A2 maybe, or A3)

1iTJ_uLwkYU.jpg

17th and 18th 1963 Exercise "Pallos"demonstration of the fire power and fighting capabilities of Chieftain.

 

120mm/60 - 1828 meters(2000 yards) - complete penetration 

120mm/60 - 3000 meters - complete penetration (strange, but it's from report)

150mm/60 - 914 meters(1000 yards) - complete penetration 

 

 

6th September 1962 F.V.R.D.E ranges Kirkcudbright 

 

120mm/60 - 1828 meters(2000 yards) - complete penetration o.v = 4472 f.s

100mm/70 - 457meters(500 yards) - compete penetration in 1st test, and 3.75 in plug out at 2nd

150mm/60 - 914 meters(1000 yards) - complete penetration 

 

thanks to Fu_Manchu for sharing this info 


Edited by Wiedzmin, 06 June 2017 - 1538 PM.

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#35 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 07 June 2017 - 0220 AM

The 3000 metre shot. Pure speculation on my part, but I know when the Long Rod penetrators did attacks at long distance, they were hitting the targets in a near indirect path. Im just wondering, depending how the plate was angled, perhaps it was hitting the place at somewhat less than a 60 degree angle. Though I do idly wonder what the dispersion of APDS would be like at 3000 metres.

 

Unless of course those are all HESH shots. :D


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#36 Wiedzmin

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Posted 07 June 2017 - 0440 AM

2000 yards for APDS 

 

Spread Hor. 28 inches by Ver. 35 inches (70x87.5cm)
MPI Right 17 inches minus 13 inches( R 42.5cm-32.5cm)
S.D of Dispersion (Min) Hor. 0.45 by Vert. 0.54
                               (Mils) Hor. 0.13 by Vert. 0.16
 
3000 meters for APDS 
 
Spread Hor. 55 inches by Ver. 75 inches (137,5x192.5cm)
MPI Right 3 inches minus 2 inches( R 7.5cm-5cm)
S.D of Dispersion (Min) Hor. 0.52 by Vert. 0.8
                               (Mils) Hor. 0.15 by Vert. 0.24

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#37 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 07 June 2017 - 0445 AM

This is interesting stuff. Did you ever find any dispersion data for L23?


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#38 Wiedzmin

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Posted 07 June 2017 - 1324 PM

no, i tried find anything about L23, but... maybe report have name like "Exercise ....." but i don't know any "name" for such exercise 


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#39 Wiedzmin

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Posted 10 June 2017 - 0525 AM

mcLcuyIj-84.jpg

 

btw L15 vs Centurion mantlet from 1880(4138 ft/s)yards.


Edited by Wiedzmin, 10 June 2017 - 0526 AM.

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#40 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 10 June 2017 - 1209 PM

What is the performance of 115mm AP rounds? Only I was reading an account of a hit in this area from a 115mm round on an Israeli Centurion which similarly penetrated, just wondering if its a similar level of performance.


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