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SU-122/54 Revisited


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#301 DKTanker

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Posted 17 April 2018 - 2313 PM

 

While I found one report claiming the Egyptians used BR-471D APCBC ammo on their IS-3Ms during the Six-Day war, to date…I haven’t been able to confirm that claim. In any case, whether they used BR-471B APBC (1944), or BR-471D APCBC (1947) rounds, several sources report that the Israelis lost a number of M48s to the main gun of those IS-3Ms. I also haven’t been able to confirm the number of M48s that were KO’d in that war.

The KO’d Israeli M48s are important here because the M48A2 is included as part of the frequently mentioned “yard stick” (along with the Chieftain and M60), to measure the Cold War effectiveness of the D-25T and D-49 122mm main guns. Interestingly enough, the reported ineffectiveness of those guns against the frontal armor of the M48A2, Chieftain, and M60 (at least as far as I could determine), relates only to the use of BR-471B ammunition, not the more capable BR-471D.
 


I'm thinking the large painting of Egyptian President Nasser confirms this to be a pic from the Six-Day War...also reported by Magnum Photos.

 

And I'd have to ask, where?  Nasser was a popular leader until his death from a heart attack.  I think it much more likely that this picture was taken somewhere along the Bar Lev line during the period in October '73 when Egypt was still heady with the success of victoriously breaching the Suez Canal and the IDF front line.

If not there, then where and when in 1967 did the Egyptians experience enough success to honor Nasser while they were being chased out of Gaza and the Sinai?


Edited by DKTanker, 17 April 2018 - 2315 PM.

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#302 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 18 April 2018 - 0642 AM

What I find odd, the paint on it looks like later kind of green gray colour the IDF was using by 1973. I thought (and I could well be wrong in this, Marsh would know better) that in 1967 they were using vehicles painted overall sand colour?

 

Whats further interesting is how many times this is cited as an Egyptian tank. Which suggests the provenance of it being the 1967 war is right to be questioned. I suspect it probably is 1967, but that there is no further attribution than 'An Egyptian tank 1967' clearly is a bit of a poser. Its difficult to understand where it could have happened, the Israeli advance being so rapid. The only explanation I have is that an Israeli tank knocked out was 'arranged' by the photographer  with the picture of Nasser after the conflict.

 

https://www.magnumph...he-six-day-war/


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#303 DKTanker

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Posted 18 April 2018 - 0940 AM

Five return rollers and commanders cupola; looks like a former M48A1 upgunned with the 105mm gun. Is the powerpack dismounted too? Could be 1967, and anything could have disabled it, like a mine.

There is a pack in the background along with a track, they well could be from the tank.  Interesting that a fire extinguisher bottle is on the front slope and that the left idler wheel assembly has been cleanly unbolted from the hull.


Edited by DKTanker, 18 April 2018 - 0954 AM.

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#304 RETAC21

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Posted 18 April 2018 - 1316 PM

 

While I found one report claiming the Egyptians used BR-471D APCBC ammo on their IS-3Ms during the Six-Day war, to date…I haven’t been able to confirm that claim. In any case, whether they used BR-471B APBC (1944), or BR-471D APCBC (1947) rounds, several sources report that the Israelis lost a number of M48s to the main gun of those IS-3Ms. I also haven’t been able to confirm the number of M48s that were KO’d in that war.

The KO’d Israeli M48s are important here because the M48A2 is included as part of the frequently mentioned “yard stick” (along with the Chieftain and M60), to measure the Cold War effectiveness of the D-25T and D-49 122mm main guns. Interestingly enough, the reported ineffectiveness of those guns against the frontal armor of the M48A2, Chieftain, and M60 (at least as far as I could determine), relates only to the use of BR-471B ammunition, not the more capable BR-471D.

Magach-3%20IDF_KO_Nasser_Six-Day%20war_1


I'm thinking the large painting of Egyptian President Nasser confirms this to be a pic from the Six-Day War...also reported by Magnum Photos.

Magach-3%20IDF_KO_Nasser_Six-Day%20war_2

 

 

Likely to be Gaza in 67 (I am thinking this is the road to El Arish). IDF's 46th tank battalion was equipped with Magach 3s but it could be part of the recon battalion of Tal's division IIRC.


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#305 R011

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Posted 18 April 2018 - 1421 PM

I remember seeing an M48 on the road between Ismailia on the Suez Canal and Cairo when I was there in 1979.  I wonder if it's that one?

I noticed it was well to the west of the T-55 monument that I was told represented the limit of Israeli penetration into Egypt.


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#306 Roman Alymov

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Posted 18 April 2018 - 1627 PM

 

 

While I found one report claiming the Egyptians used BR-471D APCBC ammo on their IS-3Ms during the Six-Day war, to date…I haven’t been able to confirm that claim. In any case, whether they used BR-471B APBC (1944), or BR-471D APCBC (1947) rounds, several sources report that the Israelis lost a number of M48s to the main gun of those IS-3Ms. I also haven’t been able to confirm the number of M48s that were KO’d in that war.

The KO’d Israeli M48s are important here because the M48A2 is included as part of the frequently mentioned “yard stick” (along with the Chieftain and M60), to measure the Cold War effectiveness of the D-25T and D-49 122mm main guns. Interestingly enough, the reported ineffectiveness of those guns against the frontal armor of the M48A2, Chieftain, and M60 (at least as far as I could determine), relates only to the use of BR-471B ammunition, not the more capable BR-471D.

 


I'm thinking the large painting of Egyptian President Nasser confirms this to be a pic from the Six-Day War...also reported by Magnum Photos.

Magach-3%20IDF_KO_Nasser_Six-Day%20war_2

 

 

Likely to be Gaza in 67 (I am thinking this is the road to El Arish). IDF's 46th tank battalion was equipped with Magach 3s but it could be part of the recon battalion of Tal's division IIRC.

 

+ GAZ63 on the background

GAZ_63.jpg


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#307 DKTanker

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Posted 18 April 2018 - 1633 PM

I remember seeing an M48 on the road between Ismailia on the Suez Canal and Cairo when I was there in 1979.  I wonder if it's that one?

I noticed it was well to the west of the T-55 monument that I was told represented the limit of Israeli penetration into Egypt.

This morning I was thinking that the scene looked like a maintenance collection point that was hastily abandoned when Israel withdrew from Egypt, but then I found that Israel didn't withdraw from the Suez west bank until 1974.  Your sighting in 1979 now reinforces my revised theory that picture wasn't taken in the Sinai after capturing the Bar Lev line, but sometime immediately after Israel withdrew from the west bank.


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#308 Brian Kennedy

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Posted 18 April 2018 - 1657 PM

Well, the agency that took the photo seems convinced it was from '67. :) https://www.magnumph...chment/par8824/


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#309 DKTanker

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Posted 18 April 2018 - 1722 PM

Well, the agency that took the photo seems convinced it was from '67. :) https://www.magnumph...chment/par8824/

The caption states, "A portrait of Egyptian President Abdul Nasser leaning against a destroyed Egyptian tank. Sinai, Egypt." 

It is a fact that Egypt had no M48s in 1967, much less M48s sporting a 105mm gun.  Given that, we have to question the rest of the claim that the picture was taken in 1967.  Moreover, the photo collection also includes a picture of damaged buildings and a dead body in what is claimed to be 1967 Port Suez, but the IDF didn't cross the Suez Canal in 1967.  So that picture, if it really is Port Suez, must have been taken no earlier than 1973.


Edited by DKTanker, 18 April 2018 - 1725 PM.

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#310 Jim Warford

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Posted 18 April 2018 - 2303 PM

Interesting...here's some more info about who in the IDF had M48A3 (105mm) tanks in 1967 (Google Translate):

"One of the cases that I have dealt with until recently is the story of the medal of Shalom Ein Gal, commander of a company in the Armored Corps that fought in the framework of the division of Major General Tal in the northern sector. The company, which was the only company of the M48 A3, with a 105mm cannon with a diesel engine, was hit by the 3 Egyptian tanks that were the heaviest tanks in the world, and with proper fire management and attack, the company of the Egyptian tanks was fortified with firepower 3 had 122mm cannons) and destroyed them. On his first day of fighting, Maj. Gen. Yisrael Tal said: "His move, with a single company, contributed enormously to the decision of this entire campaign of the first day."

Major General Tal, who examined this particular battle in detail as he was used to doing, came to the field, searched and found the shoes of the armor piercing shells of the Patton tanks, and thus could have determined scientifically and unequivocally that the company of Ein Gal had destroyed the stalinists. Ein Gal was the only one in the IDF with a 105mm cannon so there was no doubt about the company's "responsibility" for its unique combat capability. As a token of appreciation, Major General Tal gave Shalom Gal and Atlas two shoes with a dedication plaque that read:

"Lieutenant Atlas - An authentic shoe to commemorate the destruction of the Stalinists in the Six-Day War; Israel Tal, General Commander of the Armored Corps - October 1967."
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#311 Jim Warford

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Posted 19 April 2018 - 2222 PM

Just found this from the Omsk Tank Plant Museum...
 
SU-122-54_Object%20600_Model%20Omsk%20Ta


Finally, another pic of this model...pre-Object 600 at the Omsk Tank Plant museum...

SU-122-54_Object%20600_Model%20Omsk%20Ta
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#312 Roman Alymov

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Posted 20 April 2018 - 0423 AM

 

Just found this from the Omsk Tank Plant Museum...
 
 


Finally, another pic of this model...pre-Object 600 at the Omsk Tank Plant museum...

SU-122-54_Object%20600_Model%20Omsk%20Ta

 

  Unfortunatelly their Museum 3D virtual tour is down, but i hope they will restore it and give better view of the model

http://www.kbtm-omsk.ru/virtual-tour


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#313 alejandro_

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Posted 21 April 2018 - 0358 AM

pre-Object 600 at the Omsk Tank Plant museum...

 

Is this the actual designation? I have never come accross a code like this. Maybe it had a different number?


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#314 Jim Warford

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Posted 22 April 2018 - 2230 PM

Alejandro; yes...Object 600 was the development designation for the SU-122-54 prototypes (D-25 main gun). While widely known as the SU-122-54 these days (D-49 main gun), the production model may have actually been designated SU-122 (M1954) by the Soviets. As mentioned above, many Soviet/Russian sources refer to this vehicle simply as the SU-122.

Object 600:

SU-122-54_Prototypes_1.jpg

SU-122-54:

SU-122-54_22.jpg
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