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The Chieftain Does History!


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#1 Markus Becker

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Posted 14 July 2017 - 1518 PM

Looks like WG intends to capitalize from Dunkirk (the movie) as much as they can. Not that this is a bad thing. Quite the contrary. We'll get a lot of interesting and entertaining content like this:

https://youtu.be/hGpdXRaILe0:)

#2 shep854

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Posted 14 July 2017 - 1719 PM

VERY informative! I've never been a student of the fall of France, but Manic makes for a very listenable lesson.



#3 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 16 July 2017 - 0241 AM

Its very good, but there was more RAF cover than he suggests. It was not just the hurricane squadrons, I was looking through the bomber command diaries by Martin Middlebrook the other day and they were also doing attacks around the perimeter with Blenheims. They were also using Spitfire Squadrons, the best example of which is the one that was recovered from the beach at Dunkirk and subsequently (heavily) restored to flying condition. The point is, all these were well out of sight of the troops on the ground, and according to a recent documentary, lead to the myth the RAF were not present. They were present, but they were not doing direct overhead cover so much as trying to head off German attacks getting to the embarkation point.

 

If you find that interesting, there is a lecturer giving an account of the lead up to Dunkirk and the German success here. The lecturer, Lloyd Clark, gives lectures to the Army at Sandhurst if I remember rightly.

http://www.historyex...-war/blitzkrieg


Edited by Stuart Galbraith, 16 July 2017 - 0243 AM.


#4 Manic Moran

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Posted 16 July 2017 - 0343 AM

The Spitfires were not part of air component of the BEF, or of the Advanced Air Striking Force, though, they were never sent to Fance. They were sent to cover the ports from U.K. Bases but played no part in the fighting before it got to the Channel.

See related videos in the series
Holding the Perimeter https://m.youtube.co...h?v=k_tE44O9wQs
Operation Dynamo https://m.youtube.co...h?v=YKKcTCG5Yqs

One of the upcoming videos is a 45 minute or so chat with James Holland on the matter. I believe I make mention of the RAF's light bombers in one of the above videos as well.

While we're on the subject, I also have a video on Graf Spee's last cruise which just came out, https://m.youtube.co...h?v=MrHmmtrab5I

#5 DougRichards

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Posted 16 July 2017 - 0353 AM

Dunkirk was the one daylight success of the Defiant, if I recall.  A squadron of Bf109s dived on a squadron of Defiants, thinking they were Hurricanes, only to receive a dose or two of .303 from the turrets.

 

Wiki

 

During the evacuation of the British Expeditionary Force from Dunkirk, the squadron was based at RAF Manston, as one of the 16 squadrons that No. 11 Group had for the evacuation.[21] On 27 May 264 Squadron claimed three He 111 and two damaged. On 28 May, shortly after take-off, 10 Defiants were attacked by about 30 Bf 109s – forming a circle, they claimed six German fighters for the loss of three Defiants. The Defiant was initially successful against enemy aircraft and its best day was 29 May, when No. 264 Squadron claimed 37 kills in two sorties: 19 Ju 87 Stukas, mostly picked off as they came out of their dives, nine Messerschmitt Bf 110 twin-engined heavy fighters, eight Bf 109s and a Ju-88; one Defiant gunner was lost after he bailed out, although the aircraft made it back to its base to be repaired.[21] On 31 May, seven Defiants were lost in one day.[

 

Luftwaffe fighters suffered losses when "bouncing" flights of Defiants from the rear, apparently mistaking them for Hurricanes.[23] The German pilots were unaware of the Defiant's rear-firing armament and encountered concentrated defensive fire. The Luftwaffe changed tactics, to outmanoeuvre the Defiant and attack from below or dead ahead, where the turret guns offered no defence. Defiant losses quickly mounted, particularly among the gunners, who were often unable to leave stricken aircraft. The additional weight of the turret and the second crewman plus the aerodynamic drag gave the Defiant a lower performance than conventional single-seat fighter aircraft.[24]

264 Squadron developed a counter against single-seat aircraft such as the Bf 109. By flying in an ever-descending Lufbery circle, Defiant crews sacrificed the advantage of height but eliminated the possibility of attack from underneath, while giving 360° of defensive fire.[25] This tactic was used by 264 Squadron, but when the Defiants of 141 Sqn were committed to combat a few months later during the Battle of Britain, it chose to ignore their advice. On 19 July, seven out of nine 141 Squadron Defiants sent to cover a convoy off Folkestone were shot down by Bf 109s of JG 51, and the remaining two survived, one badly damaged, thanks only to the intervention of Hurricanes of 111 Sqn. The Hurricane pilots reported that the Defiants had shot down four Bf 109s.[26][27][N 2] Although 264 Squadron claimed 48 kills in eight days over Dunkirk, the cost was high with 14 Defiants lost. Actual German losses were no more than 12–15 enemy aircraft; the turret's wide angle of fire meant that several Defiants could engage the same target at one time, leading to multiple claims.

 

On 22 August, in response to an urgent demand for aircraft to defend Britain's airspace, 264 Squadron relocated to RAF Hornchurch, Essex, while also using RAF Manston, Kent as a forward base.[27] On 24 August, nine Defiants of 264 scrambled from Manston to engage an incoming German force; in the ensuing engagement, three Ju 88s and a single Bf 109E were shot down for the loss of two Defiants. Later that same day, another cluster of bombers appeared and were engaged by seven Defiants that had been in the process of refuelling; three Ju 88s and two Bf 109Es were downed while one Defiant was in turn downed along with another damaged.[27]



#6 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 16 July 2017 - 0529 AM

The Spitfires were not part of air component of the BEF, or of the Advanced Air Striking Force, though, they were never sent to Fance. They were sent to cover the ports from U.K. Bases but played no part in the fighting before it got to the Channel.

See related videos in the series
Holding the Perimeter https://m.youtube.co...h?v=k_tE44O9wQs
Operation Dynamo https://m.youtube.co...h?v=YKKcTCG5Yqs

One of the upcoming videos is a 45 minute or so chat with James Holland on the matter. I believe I make mention of the RAF's light bombers in one of the above videos as well.

While we're on the subject, I also have a video on Graf Spee's last cruise which just came out, https://m.youtube.co...h?v=MrHmmtrab5I

 

Thats right, they were operating over Dunkirk from the UK covering the evacuation.

 

BTW, no criticism intended, thats a good piece of work you did there.


Edited by Stuart Galbraith, 16 July 2017 - 0530 AM.


#7 Chris Werb

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Posted 16 July 2017 - 1017 AM

My father was there (on the British side, Royal Engineers) all he ever said was that he brought back two BRENs and his rifle.



#8 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 16 July 2017 - 1039 AM

My Grandfather was there too, Im told he came out on the Mersey Ferry, the Royal Daffodil. If history had gone just a little bit differently, I wouldnt be here.

 

From what my father said they had a bit transit camp set up on salisbury plain to sort them all out, before they were returned to their units.



#9 Adam_S

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Posted 16 July 2017 - 1645 PM

Threadjack alert.

 

On the subject of Defiants, I wonder how a Defiant type aircraft with a late-war engine such as a Griffon or a Sabre would have done. Given that aircraft engines basically doubled in power over the course of the war, could a 2,000hp class engine have been enough to offset the most grievous performance issues associated with the extra weight and drag of the turret?



#10 Colin

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Posted 16 July 2017 - 1838 PM

Threadjack alert.

 

On the subject of Defiants, I wonder how a Defiant type aircraft with a late-war engine such as a Griffon or a Sabre would have done. Given that aircraft engines basically doubled in power over the course of the war, could a 2,000hp class engine have been enough to offset the most grievous performance issues associated with the extra weight and drag of the turret?

Mixed in with conventional fighters, it seems the Defiants were good at their intended targets, but weak against aware fighters. Conventional fighters combined would have given the two types quite the edge. 



#11 sunday

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Posted 17 July 2017 - 0603 AM

I do not understand the point of a video with a talking head, with no graphics whatsoever, instead of a written article.

 

Excellent content, however.



#12 Tim the Tank Nut

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Posted 17 July 2017 - 0846 AM

these new fangled kids can't read...



#13 BillB

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Posted 17 July 2017 - 0850 AM

Indeed, and the not so new fangled as well in all too many cases... :(

 

BillB



#14 JasonJ

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Posted 17 July 2017 - 0857 AM

It's a different mode of learning. Reading is one form, and likely a form that is not appreciated enough these days. Listening and watching is another form. Reading can be done without electronics and such, and is the most versatile mode. Watching provides the engagement of seeing facial expressions and such, which there is merit to it from time to time, a different way to learn something. After all, lecture halls of talks and such also goes back into the days before the old days. Just listening frees up the hands and eyes to do something else as you listen and accomplish a two birds with one stone.



#15 Markus Becker

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Posted 17 July 2017 - 1019 AM

I do not understand the point of a video with a talking head, with no graphics whatsoever, instead of a written article.

 

Excellent content, however.

 

 

The head in question is known to talk funny now and then. That particular mix of British-Irish-American humor is probbaly hard to get into the text of an article. 

 

 

Re: The Defiant. If the plane had some forward firing machine guns it would have been a much thougher nut to crack.



#16 sunday

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Posted 17 July 2017 - 1146 AM

 

I do not understand the point of a video with a talking head, with no graphics whatsoever, instead of a written article.

 

Excellent content, however.

 

 

The head in question is known to talk funny now and then. That particular mix of British-Irish-American humor is probbaly hard to get into the text of an article. 

 

 

Re: The Defiant. If the plane had some forward firing machine guns it would have been a much thougher nut to crack.

 

 

I agree that talking head in particular has a way with words, and displays very welcomed, funny trends. But that is not the issue.


Edited by sunday, 17 July 2017 - 1147 AM.


#17 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 17 July 2017 - 1149 AM

I do not understand the point of a video with a talking head, with no graphics whatsoever, instead of a written article.

 

Excellent content, however.

We want powerpoint! I demand powerpoint! :)



#18 sunday

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Posted 17 July 2017 - 1234 PM

 

I do not understand the point of a video with a talking head, with no graphics whatsoever, instead of a written article.

 

Excellent content, however.

We want powerpoint! I demand powerpoint! :)

 

 

Clearly, Brexit has some unexpected effects... :D



#19 Markus Becker

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Posted 17 July 2017 - 1315 PM

I do not understand the point of a video with a talking head, with no graphics whatsoever, instead of a written article.
 
Excellent content, however.

We want powerpoint! I demand powerpoint! :)

The lack of infographics indicates the funny talking head is working for a company with a substandard IT. Or they are just being cheap so the shareholders get more money for coca.. Whatever they desire. ;)

#20 shep854

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Posted 17 July 2017 - 1438 PM

At least the brief clips shown were appropriate to the time and event.  No Panthers, Tigers--or reversed images.






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