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France, Unrest...what's Going On?

France Rioting

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#21 Panzermann

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Posted 05 December 2018 - 1644 PM

 

Because it is not the usual suspects demonstrating (farmers, unionized workers, leftie students...), but the middle class that normally do not do this and are not formally organized. It is not centrally organized, but rather loosely via modern communication (social media, email etc) as far as I can see. But I would still call it french deonstrations and not rioting. The riots of 1967 were bigger I think.


Are the non-union working class types involved? Along with small business, they are the ones most commonly clobbered by fuel taxes.

 

 

AFAIK yes. The unions are miffed that they have not been asked first of course. How dare anybody protest but them.


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#22 Panzermann

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Posted 05 December 2018 - 1645 PM

from Wiki :

 

" Das Aktionsbündnis gegen Stuttgart 21 wurde am 13. April 2007 gegründet. Dazu gehörten zunächst: die Bürgerinitiative Leben in Stuttgart (gegründet von Gangolf Stocker, u. a.), der Bund für Umwelt und Naturschutz Deutschland (BUND), der Kreisverband Stuttgart von Bündnis 90/Die Grünen, der Fahrgastverband Pro Bahn Regionalverband Stuttgart, der Verkehrsclub Deutschland Baden-Württemberg (VCD) und das Architekturforum Baden-Württemberg. Später stießen dazu: das parteifreie Bündnis Stuttgart Ökologisch Sozial (SÖS), Die Linke Baden-Württemberg, die Parkschützer, die Gewerkschafter gegen S21, die ArchitektInnen für K21, die Schutzgemeinschaft Filder e. V. und die SPD-Mitglieder gegen Stuttgart 21[9]  "

 

 

from Wiki:

 

" 79 % der Teilnehmer hatte bereits vor Beginn der Demonstrationen gegen Stuttgart 21 Erfahrungen mit Protesten gemacht, 46 % hatte allerdings in den vergangenen 5 Jahren an keiner Demonstration teilgenommen.[20]

 

 

Ah okay. I stand corrected. 


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#23 Panzermann

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 1051 AM

buzzfeed blames it on Facebook:

The "Yellow Jackets" Riots In France Are What Happens When Facebook Gets Involved With Local News

 

https://www.buzzfeed...ackets-facebook

 

 

Well, Facebook connects people. :D


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#24 Ivanhoe

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 1343 PM

Well, Facebook connects people. :D

 

Particularly, angry people wearing hoodies and masks.  ;)


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#25 rmgill

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 1441 PM

Macron has cancelled the tax hikes reportedly.

What are the chances of this turning into a putch?
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#26 Mr King

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 1459 PM


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#27 Mikel2

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 1732 PM

Macron has cancelled the tax hikes reportedly.

What are the chances of this turning into a putch?


They'll switch to the frog in hot water approach.
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#28 Simon Tan

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 1836 PM

He has lost the confidence of the apparatus of State. His agenda is dead. Vive la France.
Bruxelles is aghast. Roma is jubilate.
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#29 DB

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Posted 08 December 2018 - 1528 PM

Heh. Will the EU make it until the March brexit deadline, or will it collapse all on its own? ;)


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#30 Simon Tan

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Posted 08 December 2018 - 1825 PM

Germany is in political paralysis and unable to provide the control over Brussels. Juncker is incompetent. Tusk is a muppet. The same pressures that created Brexit are making this. The chickens of the Maidan have come back to roost.
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#31 Mobius

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Posted 08 December 2018 - 1825 PM

double post


Edited by Mobius, 08 December 2018 - 1827 PM.

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#32 Mobius

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Posted 08 December 2018 - 1827 PM

Hey, Macron, how do you like that kind of patriotism now?

 

Don't French unionized workers on work 30 hours a week and retire at 60?


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#33 Simon Tan

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Posted 08 December 2018 - 1840 PM

The unions are irrelevant. They were bought by Yurrup. Only 5 percent of French workers are in unions now. The Gendarmes are not fighting for Jupiter but Louis. And Marie. The story is writing itself.

There is the very real risk of the current republic going the way of the last. I expect the Police to stop cracking down, leaving the Gendarmes and CRS in the role of Berkut.

I am going with Macron gone by mid Jan.
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#34 Mobius

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Posted 08 December 2018 - 2233 PM

Why aren't these people happy?   They have single payer healthcare?   That is said to be the secret to happiness.  


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#35 Colin

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Posted 09 December 2018 - 0129 AM

 

 

 

Even more ironically, the same media have earlier been smugly pointing out Macron's low approval rates and the popular ire he has drawn for his policy of deregulation and tackling economic impediments like the high French worker protection rights. Of course at the same time, from what I see on the net to American right-wingers he's a bloody tree-hugging socialist for raising the fuel tax. Guy just can't please anybody it seems. :D

 

Keep in mind the US idea of a socialist is likely right of centre for everyone else.


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#36 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 09 December 2018 - 0334 AM

As far as Socialism, its worth reflecting on the volume of French Employment Law (Code de Travail). When it originally was released in the 1950, it was a quarter of the size it is now. Its not because they introduced a visually impaired edition either.

 

711219-code-du-travail.jpg?modified_at=1

 

There is never an Emperor when you want one.


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#37 Simon Tan

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Posted 09 December 2018 - 0432 AM

16% production tax. Madness.
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#38 seahawk

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Posted 09 December 2018 - 0443 AM

Frexit is coming and the EU is dead.


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#39 BansheeOne

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Posted 09 December 2018 - 0512 AM

As the protests have diluted from the original target of the fuel tax rise (now rescinded) to ... whatever (in one portrayal of various participants, they featured a middle-aged private teacher who is against speed limits* and wants the monarchy back :D ), it seems the European Left has defaulted to its regular sympathy for French civil disturbances. One article I read cited the grievances the French people had expressed in lieu of the world's downtrodden masses throughout history with shiny eyes, from oppressive feudalism to lack of workers rights to "US war imperialism in Vietnam", and said the demands of The People™ must be met with more left-wing socialist measures, unless they are snapped up by right-wing socialist measures. :D

 

The thing is, I found the numbers in the latest protests are surprisingly low compared to the media coverage. Yesterday it was reportedly 125,000 nation-wide, and just 8,000 in Paris. On 17 November, there were 300,000 participants across France, a week later it was 106,000, another week later 136,000. In 1968, up to half a million protested in Paris alone, and two million went on strike nation-wide. I think many of the more recent protests in Paris have been bigger than the current. The difference is in the self-organization, and that up to 80 percent of the general population are said to sympathize with the movement - no surprise if you can project any cause onto it. By comparison in 1968

 

[...] A survey taken immediately after the crisis found that 20% of Frenchmen would have supported a revolution, 23% would have opposed it, and 57% would have avoided physical participation in the conflict. 33% would have fought a military intervention, while only 5% would have supported it and a majority of the country would have avoided any action.[9]

 

At 2:30 p.m. on 30 May, Pompidou persuaded de Gaulle to dissolve the National Assembly and call a new election by threatening to resign. At 4:30 p.m., de Gaulle broadcast his own refusal to resign. He announced an election, scheduled for 23 June, and ordered workers to return to work, threatening to institute a state of emergency if they did not. The government had leaked to the media that the army was outside Paris. Immediately after the speech, about 800,000 supporters marched through the Champs-Élysées waving the national flag; the Gaullists had planned the rally for several days, which attracted a crowd of diverse ages, occupations, and politics. The Communists agreed to the election, and the threat of revolution was over.[9][14][16]

 

[...]

 

Contrary to de Gaulle's fears, his party won the greatest victory in French parliamentary history in the legislative election held in June, taking 353 of 486 seats versus the Communists' 34 and the Socialists' 57.[9] [...]

 

Despite the size of de Gaulle's triumph, it was not a personal one. The post-crisis survey showed that a majority of the country saw de Gaulle as too old, too self-centered, too authoritarian, too conservative, and too anti-American. As the April 1969 referendum would show, the country was ready for "Gaullism without de Gaulle".[9]

 

https://en.wikipedia...vents_in_France

 

Of course de Gaulle had actually fled to Germany at one point. I daresay Macron feels no need for this, and will survive the protests just fine. ;)

 

 

* Now national speed limits on autobahns is something I could see Germans riot over. :D


Edited by BansheeOne, 09 December 2018 - 0547 AM.

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#40 Rick

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Posted 09 December 2018 - 0620 AM

As the protests have diluted from the original target of the fuel tax rise (now rescinded) to ... whatever (in one portrayal of various participants, they featured a middle-aged private teacher who is against speed limits* and wants the monarchy back :D ), it seems the European Left has defaulted to its regular sympathy for French civil disturbances. One article I read cited the grievances the French people had expressed in lieu of the world's downtrodden masses throughout history with shiny eyes, from oppressive feudalism to lack of workers rights to "US war imperialism in Vietnam", and said the demands of The People™ must be met with more left-wing socialist measures, unless they are snapped up by right-wing socialist measures. :D

 

The thing is, I found the numbers in the latest protests are surprisingly low compared to the media coverage. Yesterday it was reportedly 125,000 nation-wide, and just 8,000 in Paris. On 17 November, there were 300,000 participants across France, a week later it was 106,000, another week later 136,000. In 1968, up to half a million protested in Paris alone, and two million went on strike nation-wide. I think many of the more recent protests in Paris have been bigger than the current. The difference is in the self-organization, and that up to 80 percent of the general population are said to sympathize with the movement - no surprise if you can project any cause onto it. By comparison in 1968

 

[...] A survey taken immediately after the crisis found that 20% of Frenchmen would have supported a revolution, 23% would have opposed it, and 57% would have avoided physical participation in the conflict. 33% would have fought a military intervention, while only 5% would have supported it and a majority of the country would have avoided any action.[9]

 

At 2:30 p.m. on 30 May, Pompidou persuaded de Gaulle to dissolve the National Assembly and call a new election by threatening to resign. At 4:30 p.m., de Gaulle broadcast his own refusal to resign. He announced an election, scheduled for 23 June, and ordered workers to return to work, threatening to institute a state of emergency if they did not. The government had leaked to the media that the army was outside Paris. Immediately after the speech, about 800,000 supporters marched through the Champs-Élysées waving the national flag; the Gaullists had planned the rally for several days, which attracted a crowd of diverse ages, occupations, and politics. The Communists agreed to the election, and the threat of revolution was over.[9][14][16]

 

[...]

 

Contrary to de Gaulle's fears, his party won the greatest victory in French parliamentary history in the legislative election held in June, taking 353 of 486 seats versus the Communists' 34 and the Socialists' 57.[9] [...]

 

Despite the size of de Gaulle's triumph, it was not a personal one. The post-crisis survey showed that a majority of the country saw de Gaulle as too old, too self-centered, too authoritarian, too conservative, and too anti-American. As the April 1969 referendum would show, the country was ready for "Gaullism without de Gaulle".[9]

 

https://en.wikipedia...vents_in_France

 

Of course de Gaulle had actually fled to Germany at one point. I daresay Macron feels no need for this, and will survive the protests just fine. ;)

 

 

* Now national speed limits on autobahns is something I could see Germans riot over. :D

Out of idle curiosity concerning German speed limits, how long does it take to travel from the extreme north of Germany to the extreme south? East to West?


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