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#461 BansheeOne

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Posted 15 September 2019 - 0827 AM

The Maas-Wong meeting seems to have happened at a fest thrown at the Bundestag's public roof terrace restaurant by the "Bild" tabloid, which interviewed Wong. Seems other ministers had left before the latter arrived, but Maas waited to meet him. Obviously he got backed up by the rest of the government against the Chinese criticism though. Aforementioned FDP head Christian Lindner used this week's general budget debate in parliament to criticize Angela Merkel for not being critical enough during her recent China visit; she reiterated that she spoke out for human rights and the "one country, two systems" principle.

 

As a rare exception among German media commentary on the situation, I've seen rather strange opinion pieces by "Spiegel's" Paris correspondent Gregor Blume who has said that the West shouldn't encourage Hong Kong protesters and give them too much hope, since it would result in an inevitable crackdown just as he witnessed back on Tianmen Square. Fair enough; the strange part is in coming up with all sorts of weird arguments why Western-China relations are important, including to address climate change.

 

This in the kind of media which have never been shy to accuse German governments of treating China with kids gloves on human right out of economic interest; it looks awkward to the point of where you wonder how the Chinese made him do it. There is appropriate criticism in the comments sections under the pieces, but of course also applause by the typical authoritarianism groupies who say that The West Shouldn't Meddle in Other Country's Affairs like with Maidan in Ukraine. Not sure if that's just the usual Putinbots latching onto an oblique opportunity, or China has its own German-language trolls these days. Quite likely both.

 

Meanwhile back in Hong Kong itself:

 

Hong Kongers Sing ‘God Save the Queen’, Ask Brits to Protect Them from Communist Regime


(AFP) — Pro-democracy protesters rallied outside Britain’s consulate in Hong Kong on Sunday, demanding London do more to protect its former colonial subjects and ramp up pressure on Beijing over sliding freedoms.

 

Hundreds of demonstrators sang “God Save the Queen” and “Rule Britannia” outside the consulate, waving the Union Jack as well as Hong Kong’s colonial-era flags.

 

The protest came as another large rally made its way through the city streets on Sunday afternoon in defiance of a ban by police, who warned the gathering was illegal.

 

[...]

 

Many of the protest signs accused Britain of not doing enough to confront Beijing over its tightening grip on the semi-autonomous Chinese city.

 

“Sino-British Joint Declaration is VOID,” one read, referencing the 1984 agreement that paved the way for the city’s handover, a deal that Hong Kongers were given no say over.

 

“So far I’m quite disappointed by the fact that the UK hasn’t done anything to support us,” protester Alex Leung, a recent graduate, told AFP.

 

Many called for Hong Kongers who want to leave the city to be granted citizenship in Britain or other Commonwealth nations.

 

Some Hong Kongers were given British National Overseas (BNO) passports before the handover, a document that allows holders easy travel to the UK but grants no working or residency rights.

 

“At least with the full citizenship they can protect Hong Kong people from the Chinese government,” protester Anthony Chau, who holds a BNO passport, told AFP.

 

Earlier this week some 130 UK lawmakers signed a joint letter calling for Britain and Commonwealth countries to come up with an “insurance policy” for Hong Kongers to resettle overseas should they wish to.

 

Britain treads carefully

 

Hong Kong has been battered by nearly 100 days of protests, sparked by a now-abandoned plan to allow extraditions to the mainland.

 

China has portrayed the protests as foreign-funded, singling out Britain and the United States for criticism, although it has presented little evidence beyond supportive statements from some foreign politicians.

 

It has insisted Hong Kong — an international finance hub with a significant foreign population — is an entirely internal matter.

 

Britain has walked a careful path on the protests, keen to keep Beijing onside as a valuable trade partner, especially given the uncertainty thrown up by its imminent departure from the European Union.

 

But it has also expressed concerns about the direction Hong Kong has headed and says it has a duty to ensure Beijing upholds the deal it struck before the handover.

 

“The Joint Declaration is a legally binding treaty between the UK and China that remains as valid today as it was when it was signed and ratified over 30 years ago,” a British Foreign Office spokeswoman said in June.

 

[...]

 

Sunday’s protest outside the UK mission was significantly smaller than a huge march the week before to the United States consulate which saw tens of thousands turn out.

 

The pro-democracy movement has vowed to continue until key demands are met, including an inquiry into the police, an amnesty for those arrested and universal suffrage.

 

There are plans for further protests in the coming weeks, culminating on 1 October when leaders in Beijing are planning huge celebrations to mark the 70th anniversary of the People’s Republic of China.

 

https://www.breitbar...mmunist-regime/

 

Hong Kong protests: Petrol bombs and water cannon used in clashes

 
2 hours ago
 

Police in Hong Kong have used water cannon and tear gas against protesters throwing petrol bombs and bricks near government offices in the city.

 

The violence broke out after thousands of pro-democracy demonstrators marched in defiance of a police ban.

 

Earlier hundreds rallied outside the British Consulate, demanding the UK press China to maintain freedoms guaranteed during the 1997 handover.

 

Months of unrest were sparked by a now-scrapped extradition bill.

 

It would have made it possible for people in Hong Kong to be extradited to mainland China, where critics say they could face human rights abuses.

 

Earlier this month the bill was finally withdrawn - but protesters continue to call for full democracy and an investigation into allegations of police brutality.

 

What is happening in the clashes?

 

Reports say some protesters threw bricks at police outside China's People's Liberation Army base, which is near to the Hong Kong parliament and government offices.

 

They also set fire to a banner proclaiming the 70th anniversary of the founding of the People's Republic of China, Reuters news agency reported.

 

For the second week running, some marchers carried the US Stars and Stripes flag and called for President Donald Trump to "liberate" Hong Kong.

 

[...]

 

https://www.bbc.com/...d-asia-49705988


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#462 JasonJ

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Posted 15 September 2019 - 0916 AM

The Maas-Wong meeting seems to have happened at a fest thrown at the Bundestag's public roof terrace restaurant by the "Bild" tabloid, which interviewed Wong. Seems other ministers had left before the latter arrived, but Maas waited to meet him. Obviously he got backed up by the rest of the government against the Chinese criticism though. Aforementioned FDP head Christian Lindner used this week's general budget debate in parliament to criticize Angela Merkel for not being critical enough during her recent China visit; she reiterated that she spoke out for human rights and the "one country, two systems" principle.

 

As a rare exception among German media commentary on the situation, I've seen rather strange opinion pieces by "Spiegel's" Paris correspondent Gregor Blume who has said that the West shouldn't encourage Hong Kong protesters and give them too much hope, since it would result in an inevitable crackdown just as he witnessed back on Tianmen Square. Fair enough; the strange part is in coming up with all sorts of weird arguments why Western-China relations are important, including to address climate change.

 

This in the kind of media which have never been shy to accuse German governments of treating China with kids gloves on human right out of economic interest; it looks awkward to the point of where you wonder how the Chinese made him do it. There is appropriate criticism in the comments sections under the pieces, but of course also applause by the typical authoritarianism groupies who say that The West Shouldn't Meddle in Other Country's Affairs like with Maidan in Ukraine. Not sure if that's just the usual Putinbots latching onto an oblique opportunity, or China has its own German-language trolls these days. Quite likely both.

 

...

 

Honestly, its scary how some westerners pile on with the Pro-Beijing camp.

 

One thought I had for some time is that part of it might be psychological which is that the brain thinks what is accurate or correct is the mid point of average opinion of two sides. However if one side (A) is bouncing around at various degrees of disagreement while the other side is completely and totally max on troll (B], so as a result,the mid point of average opinion is pulled to the side of the (B]. And upon cycle after cycle, the mid point of average opinion keeps shifting towards (B].


Edited by JasonJ, 15 September 2019 - 0916 AM.

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#463 JasonJ

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Posted 15 September 2019 - 0923 AM

In the last couple of days, a mall has been used for demonstration by the free HK protesters and Pro-Beijing protesters.

 

Pro-Beijing.

 

Free HK. Among various singing of HK songs and such, US anthem at 19:50


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#464 JasonJ

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Posted 15 September 2019 - 0925 AM

Also at the mall..

 

Free-HK demonstrators vs HK Police

 

Free-HK vs Pro-Beijing


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#465 BansheeOne

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Posted 15 September 2019 - 1004 AM

Honestly, its scary how some westerners pile on with the Pro-Beijing camp.
 
One thought I had for some time is that part of it might be psychological which is that the brain thinks what is accurate or correct is the mid point of average opinion of two sides. However if one side (A) is bouncing around at various degrees of disagreement while the other side is completely and totally max on troll (B], so as a result,the mid point of average opinion is pulled to the side of the (B]. And upon cycle after cycle, the mid point of average opinion keeps shifting towards (B].


It's of course nothing new that e. g. anti-Americans have been cheering anybody "standing up to the US", including such illustrious beacons of liberty as Iran and North Korea. With the wave of political discontent inside Western societies in the last decade or so, I think the sentiment of "I like anybody who's at odds with my government" has become more widespread, accompanied by anti-globalist tendencies of minding your own business.

Of course authoritarian regimes have seized on that discontent to influence Western opinion for their ends. Not really new either, it was the same during the Cold War era when the buzzword of Western dissidence was imperialism rather than globalism. The opportunities are just much greater in the internet age.
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#466 JasonJ

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Posted 15 September 2019 - 1012 AM

 

Honestly, its scary how some westerners pile on with the Pro-Beijing camp.
 
One thought I had for some time is that part of it might be psychological which is that the brain thinks what is accurate or correct is the mid point of average opinion of two sides. However if one side (A) is bouncing around at various degrees of disagreement while the other side is completely and totally max on troll (B], so as a result,the mid point of average opinion is pulled to the side of the (B]. And upon cycle after cycle, the mid point of average opinion keeps shifting towards (B].


It's of course nothing new that e. g. anti-Americans have been cheering anybody "standing up to the US", including such illustrious beacons of liberty as Iran and North Korea. With the wave of political discontent inside Western societies in the last decade or so, I think the sentiment of "I like anybody who's at odds with my government" has become more widespread, accompanied by anti-globalist tendencies of minding your own business.

Of course authoritarian regimes have seized on that discontent to influence Western opinion for their ends. Not really new either, it was the same during the Cold War era when the buzzword of Western dissidence was imperialism rather than globalism. The opportunities are just much greater in the internet age.

 

 

Right, its not a new dynamic. But the economic rewards that China presents is something new in the modern era and people are willing to tease anti-western ideals to get that money. How quick will people forget about this whole HK things once it finally blows over? There have been so many points in the last 20-30 years about China that should have put a stopper on people siding with China in opinion than otherwise. Another thing that is new is China itself has a very big population and in some cases, regardless of level of intellect, majority rules. General opinion in the west switches just once in favor of PRC rhetoric, its over.


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#467 Nobu

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Posted 15 September 2019 - 1152 AM

The Maas-Wong meeting seems to have happened at a fest thrown at the Bundestag's public roof terrace restaurant by the "Bild" tabloid, which interviewed Wong. Seems other ministers had left before the latter arrived, but Maas waited to meet him. Obviously he got backed up by the rest of the government against the Chinese criticism though. Aforementioned FDP head Christian Lindner used this week's general budget debate in parliament to criticize Angela Merkel for not being critical enough during her recent China visit; she reiterated that she spoke out for human rights and the "one country, two systems" principle.
 
As a rare exception among German media commentary on the situation, I've seen rather strange opinion pieces by "Spiegel's" Paris correspondent Gregor Blume who has said that the West shouldn't encourage Hong Kong protesters and give them too much hope, since it would result in an inevitable crackdown just as he witnessed back on Tianmen Square. Fair enough; the strange part is in coming up with all sorts of weird arguments why Western-China relations are important, including to address climate change.
 
This in the kind of media which have never been shy to accuse German governments of treating China with kids gloves on human right out of economic interest; it looks awkward to the point of where you wonder how the Chinese made him do it. There is appropriate criticism in the comments sections under the pieces, but of course also applause by the typical authoritarianism groupies who say that The West Shouldn't Meddle in Other Country's Affairs like with Maidan in Ukraine. Not sure if that's just the usual Putinbots latching onto an oblique opportunity, or China has its own German-language trolls these days. Quite likely both.
 
Meanwhile back in Hong Kong itself:
 

Hong Kongers Sing God Save the Queen, Ask Brits to Protect Them from Communist Regime
(AFP) Pro-democracy protesters rallied outside Britains consulate in Hong Kong on Sunday, demanding London do more to protect its former colonial subjects and ramp up pressure on Beijing over sliding freedoms.

 
Hundreds of demonstrators sang God Save the Queen and Rule Britannia outside the consulate, waving the Union Jack as well as Hong Kongs colonial-era flags.
 
The protest came as another large rally made its way through the city streets on Sunday afternoon in defiance of a ban by police, who warned the gathering was illegal.
 
[...]
 
Many of the protest signs accused Britain of not doing enough to confront Beijing over its tightening grip on the semi-autonomous Chinese city.
 
Sino-British Joint Declaration is VOID, one read, referencing the 1984 agreement that paved the way for the citys handover, a deal that Hong Kongers were given no say over.
 
So far Im quite disappointed by the fact that the UK hasnt done anything to support us, protester Alex Leung, a recent graduate, told AFP.
 
Many called for Hong Kongers who want to leave the city to be granted citizenship in Britain or other Commonwealth nations.
 
Some Hong Kongers were given British National Overseas (BNO) passports before the handover, a document that allows holders easy travel to the UK but grants no working or residency rights.
 
At least with the full citizenship they can protect Hong Kong people from the Chinese government, protester Anthony Chau, who holds a BNO passport, told AFP.
 
Earlier this week some 130 UK lawmakers signed a joint letter calling for Britain and Commonwealth countries to come up with an insurance policy for Hong Kongers to resettle overseas should they wish to.
 
Britain treads carefully
 
Hong Kong has been battered by nearly 100 days of protests, sparked by a now-abandoned plan to allow extraditions to the mainland.
 
China has portrayed the protests as foreign-funded, singling out Britain and the United States for criticism, although it has presented little evidence beyond supportive statements from some foreign politicians.
 
It has insisted Hong Kong an international finance hub with a significant foreign population is an entirely internal matter.
 
Britain has walked a careful path on the protests, keen to keep Beijing onside as a valuable trade partner, especially given the uncertainty thrown up by its imminent departure from the European Union.
 
But it has also expressed concerns about the direction Hong Kong has headed and says it has a duty to ensure Beijing upholds the deal it struck before the handover.
 
The Joint Declaration is a legally binding treaty between the UK and China that remains as valid today as it was when it was signed and ratified over 30 years ago, a British Foreign Office spokeswoman said in June.
 
[...]
 
Sundays protest outside the UK mission was significantly smaller than a huge march the week before to the United States consulate which saw tens of thousands turn out.
 
The pro-democracy movement has vowed to continue until key demands are met, including an inquiry into the police, an amnesty for those arrested and universal suffrage.
 
There are plans for further protests in the coming weeks, culminating on 1 October when leaders in Beijing are planning huge celebrations to mark the 70th anniversary of the Peoples Republic of China.

 
https://www.breitbar...mmunist-regime/
 

Hong Kong protests: Petrol bombs and water cannon used in clashes

 
2 hours ago
 

Police in Hong Kong have used water cannon and tear gas against protesters throwing petrol bombs and bricks near government offices in the city.
 
The violence broke out after thousands of pro-democracy demonstrators marched in defiance of a police ban.
 
Earlier hundreds rallied outside the British Consulate, demanding the UK press China to maintain freedoms guaranteed during the 1997 handover.
 
Months of unrest were sparked by a now-scrapped extradition bill.
 
It would have made it possible for people in Hong Kong to be extradited to mainland China, where critics say they could face human rights abuses.
 
Earlier this month the bill was finally withdrawn - but protesters continue to call for full democracy and an investigation into allegations of police brutality.
 What is happening in the clashes?

 
Reports say some protesters threw bricks at police outside China's People's Liberation Army base, which is near to the Hong Kong parliament and government offices.
 
They also set fire to a banner proclaiming the 70th anniversary of the founding of the People's Republic of China, Reuters news agency reported.
 
For the second week running, some marchers carried the US Stars and Stripes flag and called for President Donald Trump to "liberate" Hong Kong.
 
[...]

 
https://www.bbc.com/...d-asia-49705988

"So far, I am disappointed that the UK has not done anything to support us."--a Hongkongese protester.

What is disappointing as well is the inability of the Hongkongese to force this mother Carrie Lam to rethink her waiting game approach to them. Molotov cocktail usage against the police is a promising development in this regard, however.


Edited by Nobu, 15 September 2019 - 1722 PM.

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#468 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 0156 AM

Sorry guys, Boris has this really important Brexit to deal with. The Hulk is only capable of dealing with one problem at a time, apparently.


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#469 JasonJ

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 0750 AM

Joshua Wong interview on German TV media. I thought the questioners were leaning a little on Pro-Beijing, kind of like "just stop protesting for silly democracy concept and make good business environment again". But questions are questions and he got an opportunity to answer them and give his viewpoints. Overall, I thought he answered well.

 

One weak spot in his answers I thought was his use of "police brutality". Some instances could be said to be brutal, but overall, not quite at the level of brutality seen in other cases around the world. It's a weak spot because I think there will be a number of viewers that probably do think that police brutality wasn't that brutal so by saying that, so it risks making his other points look like exaggerations too, which they are not.

 

 


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#470 rmgill

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 0943 AM

Sorry guys, Boris has this really important Brexit to deal with. The Hulk is only capable of dealing with one problem at a time, apparently.


Suddenly, it's the UK's problem now? Were you convinced or is this just due to the utility of throwing slings and arrows at Boris?
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#471 Nobu

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 1143 AM

Sorry guys, Boris has this really important Brexit to deal with. The Hulk is only capable of dealing with one problem at a time, apparently.

 

The one problem facing the Hongkongese for the past 4 months has been a 5'2" 98-pound mother figure, who they are apparently incapable of dealing with by means of protest.

 

Other means may be needed.


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#472 JasonJ

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Posted Yesterday, 07:12 AM

Agnes Chow also went to Germany and participated at an event in Mainz with former EU parliament members and academics talking about Taiwan, China, and Hong Kong.

AgnesinGer1.jpg

Couple of more images in the spoiler

Spoiler

https://twitter.com/...602754289385472


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#473 Nobu

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Posted Yesterday, 08:46 AM

What is encouraging is that the protests appear to be getting more violent. What is not encouraging is that they appear to be getting smaller.

 

What would help would be the emergence of a Hongkongese equivalent of An Jeun-geun in various ways.


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#474 JasonJ

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Posted Today, 05:22 AM

Joshua Wong and others in the US at a hearing at the US Congressional Executive Commission on China. The hearing is opened up by Rubio giving remarks in full support of Hong Kong. The whole thing is over two hours long and I haven't listened to it all yet and may take time to finish listening to it all. But just putting it up now. Starts at 17:52.


Edited by JasonJ, Today, 05:23 AM.

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