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Obscure Saladin Armoured Car Question


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#1 Chris Werb

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Posted 27 July 2019 - 1623 PM

Why didn't Bundesgrenzschutz Saladins have co-axial machine guns fitted?


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#2 DKTanker

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Posted 27 July 2019 - 1734 PM

Why didn't Bundesgrenzschutz Saladins have co-axial machine guns fitted?

Perhaps they were seen as provocative, that's the reason we couldn't run border patrols with gun jeeps and had to keep our AFVs outside the 1K zone.


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#3 Chris Werb

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Posted 27 July 2019 - 1736 PM

Well there's the small matter of the 76 mm gun that was installed and the MG42/1/2/3? pintle mounted on the turret....

 

1966_Saladin_im_Sennelager._Recht_Rainer​


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#4 DKTanker

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Posted 27 July 2019 - 1751 PM

Well there's the small matter of the 76mm gun that was installed....

For some reason those bigger guns aren't seen as threatening as machine guns, and they really aren't against infantry and opposition border guards.  An example, when there was increased terrorist bombing activity in the FRG we would park a tank, without mounted machine guns, at the entrances to the kaserne.  When the threat level increased in the days after the US responded to the Iraq invasion of Kuwait, we again parked our tanks at the entrances but this time we mounted our machine guns (though we weren't issued ammo, so it could have gotten interesting).


Edited by DKTanker, 27 July 2019 - 1752 PM.

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#5 Chris Werb

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Posted 27 July 2019 - 1803 PM

Note also the machine gun behind its own gunshield on the turret. The pic looks like it was out of a bad 1960s war movie :)


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#6 DougRichards

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Posted 27 July 2019 - 1831 PM

Note also the machine gun behind its own gunshield on the turret. The pic looks like it was out of a bad 1960s war movie :)

 

Perhaps that provides a clue.  The MG on the turret is an MG3. The normal co-ax would be Browning M1919A4.

 

Did W Germany ever use Brownings?


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#7 Chris Werb

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Posted 27 July 2019 - 2020 PM

 

Note also the machine gun behind its own gunshield on the turret. The pic looks like it was out of a bad 1960s war movie :)

 

Perhaps that provides a clue.  The MG on the turret is an MG3. The normal co-ax would be Browning M1919A4.

 

Did W Germany ever use Brownings?

 

 

Allegedly, yes.

 

https://de.wikipedia..._der_Bundeswehr


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#8 Chris Werb

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Posted 27 July 2019 - 2020 PM

Here's something you don't see every day:

 

german-M1-Carbine-03-military.jpg​


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#9 DougRichards

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Posted 27 July 2019 - 2200 PM

 

 

Note also the machine gun behind its own gunshield on the turret. The pic looks like it was out of a bad 1960s war movie :)

 

Perhaps that provides a clue.  The MG on the turret is an MG3. The normal co-ax would be Browning M1919A4.

 

Did W Germany ever use Brownings?

 

 

Allegedly, yes.

 

https://de.wikipedia..._der_Bundeswehr

 

 

The service dates may have something to do with it: The Browning was only used apparently from 1955 to 1957, likewise dates for the BAR.  But that was also the Heer, not the Bundesgrenzschutz, or Federal Border Guard (someone may correct me here / heer) who used the Saladin rather than the Heer.


Edited by DougRichards, 27 July 2019 - 2205 PM.

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#10 BansheeOne

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Posted 28 July 2019 - 0440 AM

Interestingly the Wiki entry on the Saladin says

 

A special variant known as the FV601D was developed for law enforcement agencies and internal security purposes; this model lacked a co-axial machine gun and had different lights and smoke dischargers.[4] The FV601D was only adopted by the German Federal Bundesgrenzschutz, which designated it Geschützter Sonderwagen III.[5]

 

https://en.wikipedia...i/Alvis_Saladin

 

At which point you really have to wonder why the 76 mm gun is supposed to be suited to law enforcement, but the coax is not; unless they already had in mind that prospective customers didn't typically use .30 and would stick their own machineguns on it anyway.

 

Here's something you don't see every day:

 

The M39 was the first vehicle trialed for the post-war Panzergrenadiere. The US offered 100, of which 32 served with the Panzergrenadier-Lehrbataillon in Munster, though only until 1960. A lack of spare parts was cited, but apparently the method of mounting and dismounting via the top wasn't popular, too. Not that the succeeding HS 30 was a success story either.


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#11 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 28 July 2019 - 0509 AM

I idly wonder if it was something to do with border runners. If they lacked MG, they couldn't be accused of the Osties of having shot people coming across.


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#12 Chris Werb

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Posted 28 July 2019 - 0520 AM

Interestingly the Wiki entry on the Saladin says

 

A special variant known as the FV601D was developed for law enforcement agencies and internal security purposes; this model lacked a co-axial machine gun and had different lights and smoke dischargers.[4] The FV601D was only adopted by the German Federal Bundesgrenzschutz, which designated it Geschützter Sonderwagen III.[5]

 

https://en.wikipedia...i/Alvis_Saladin

 

At which point you really have to wonder why the 76 mm gun is supposed to be suited to law enforcement, but the coax is not; unless they already had in mind that prospective customers didn't typically use .30 and would stick their own machineguns on it anyway.

 

Here's something you don't see every day:

 

The M39 was the first vehicle trialed for the post-war Panzergrenadiere. The US offered 100, of which 32 served with the Panzergrenadier-Lehrbataillon in Munster, though only until 1960. A lack of spare parts was cited, but apparently the method of mounting and dismounting via the top wasn't popular, too. Not that the succeeding HS 30 was a success story either.

 

One of them is still there.

 

3633907426_285a3982c2_b.jpg​


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#13 Panzermann

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Posted 28 July 2019 - 0539 AM

 

 

Note also the machine gun behind its own gunshield on the turret. The pic looks like it was out of a bad 1960s war movie :)

 
Perhaps that provides a clue.  The MG on the turret is an MG3. The normal co-ax would be Browning M1919A4.
 
Did W Germany ever use Brownings?

 

 
Allegedly, yes.
 
https://de.wikipedia..._der_Bundeswehr

 


Yes, they were part of the first equipment from US donations. togehter with all the other US Army surplus. (and also British surplus) One thing that has stuck in Landser memory is the idiotic "three clicks back" rule of thumb for setting headspace on an M1919. Which makers no sense on an MG3 muzzel device. But try explaining that to a StUffz.  :(


Edited by Panzermann, 28 July 2019 - 0544 AM.

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#14 Panzermann

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Posted 28 July 2019 - 0543 AM

Interestingly the Wiki entry on the Saladin says
 

A special variant known as the FV601D was developed for law enforcement agencies and internal security purposes; this model lacked a co-axial machine gun and had different lights and smoke dischargers.%5B4%5D The FV601D was only adopted by the German Federal Bundesgrenzschutz, which designated it Geschützter Sonderwagen III.%5B5%5D

 
https://en.wikipedia...i/Alvis_Saladin
 
At which point you really have to wonder why the 76 mm gun is supposed to be suited to law enforcement, but the coax is not; unless they already had in mind that prospective customers didn't typically use .30 and would stick their own machineguns on it anyway.


You can shoot smoke and tear gas and such from the three inch gun. But to remove the coax I have no idea what the thinking behind that was.

Here's something you don't see every day:

 
The M39 was the first vehicle trialed for the post-war Panzergrenadiere. The US offered 100, of which 32 served with the Panzergrenadier-Lehrbataillon in Munster, though only until 1960. A lack of spare parts was cited, but apparently the method of mounting and dismounting via the top wasn't popular, too. Not that the succeeding HS 30 was a success story either.


Really, in concept the old half tracks from WW2 were ahead in concept with a rear door for dismounting and the kangaroos were just a wartime improvisation. I have no idea how they got it into their heads that the HS-30 may have ever been a gopod idea. Well it had many other mechanical faults.
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#15 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 28 July 2019 - 0550 AM

Its probably no coincidence that the only 2 tracked vehicles in NATO designed to be multifuel, turned out to be mechanical disasters.


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#16 Panzermann

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Posted 28 July 2019 - 0600 AM

Its probably no coincidence that the only 2 tracked vehicles in NATO designed to be multifuel, turned out to be mechanical disasters.

 

 

Uhm no. The Leopard 1 engine is multifuel and runs fine. Which is the one example that imediately come to my mind. For lower costs and more power it has shifted towards pure Diesel fuel engines today. Which brings its own problems when the Diesel fuel optimized COTS engines choke on JP4 kerosene supplied by US forces.


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#17 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 28 July 2019 - 0615 AM

 

Its probably no coincidence that the only 2 tracked vehicles in NATO designed to be multifuel, turned out to be mechanical disasters.

 

 

Uhm no. The Leopard 1 engine is multifuel and runs fine. Which is the one example that imediately come to my mind. For lower costs and more power it has shifted towards pure Diesel fuel engines today. Which brings its own problems when the Diesel fuel optimized COTS engines choke on JP4 kerosene supplied by US forces.

 

 

 

I thought they had converted that to be a pure diesel at an early stage?

 

They can run Challenger 2 on JP4, and did in 2003 from what they siphoned off from a USMC pipeline. Had lowered power output though.


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#18 Chris Werb

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Posted 28 July 2019 - 0953 AM

 

 I have no idea how they got it into their heads that the HS-30 may have ever been a gopod idea. Well it had many other mechanical faults.

 

 

Not surprising as it was built in the UK (shudder!)


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#19 rmgill

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Posted 28 July 2019 - 1654 PM

My M813a1 was set up for JP8 and ran fine (save for the plastic garbage I found in the tank).

Whats the heating value diff between kerosene and diesel, shouldn't be much at all. You dont really need a multi-fuel for that switch. Its MoGas thats the hard part. Thats what needs the MAN hypercycle combustion stuff.

Adding, looking at some charts, Jp8 and no1 diesel come from the same distillate fractions from raw feed stock. No 2 diesel is a thicker fraction, lower down the distillation column. Gasoline is a higher, more aromatic fraction, next bracket up from kerosene and no1 diesel.

https://apps.dtic.mi.../u2/a554221.pdf

Edited by rmgill, 28 July 2019 - 1702 PM.

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#20 Colin

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Posted 28 July 2019 - 1737 PM

Interestingly the Wiki entry on the Saladin says

 

A special variant known as the FV601D was developed for law enforcement agencies and internal security purposes; this model lacked a co-axial machine gun and had different lights and smoke dischargers.[4] The FV601D was only adopted by the German Federal Bundesgrenzschutz, which designated it Geschützter Sonderwagen III.[5]

 

https://en.wikipedia...i/Alvis_Saladin

 

At which point you really have to wonder why the 76 mm gun is supposed to be suited to law enforcement, but the coax is not; unless they already had in mind that prospective customers didn't typically use .30 and would stick their own machineguns on it anyway.

 

Here's something you don't see every day:

 

The M39 was the first vehicle trialed for the post-war Panzergrenadiere. The US offered 100, of which 32 served with the Panzergrenadier-Lehrbataillon in Munster, though only until 1960. A lack of spare parts was cited, but apparently the method of mounting and dismounting via the top wasn't popular, too. Not that the succeeding HS 30 was a success story either.

Canister shot using rubber balls and reduced charge might have been interesting :)


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