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#6261 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted Yesterday, 08:17 AM

Blaire Labour was effectively a social democrat platform, with at least some pretentions of fiscal prudence - relatively speaking, anyway. It squeezed the Liberal Democrat vote by being more centrist, putting it between the LDs and Tory policies on the usual one dimensional scale.

Previously, Labour was dominated by Union block votes, which gave them the likes of the unelectable Michael Foot, a Corbyn precursor with better manners and worse dress sense.

Thatcher's reforms broke the union stranglehold through what the US calls right to work policies, but most particularly, allowing union members to opt out of mandatory subscriptions to Labour in their union dues.

Anyway, Corbyn was elected by the Labour membership, largely against the wishes of the parliamentary party (ie Labour MPs). Obviously, since he became leader, there has been a migration of support towards him in the parliamentary party because of how Look about selects candidates.

It's unclear to me how his rank and file support will change on a defeat. If he had been electable, he'd have won the last election. That didn't shift him, do why should this?

Yeah, the Labour Parliamentarians didnt want him. OK, a few nominated him to give what they figured would be a broadband of respresentation in the election runoff. But none of them expected him to win. It really was a Trump like result nobody saw coming.

 

He didnt shift last time because he increased the Labour share of the votes, and gained seats. Its not uncommon in those circumstances in the past for Labour leaders to remain in harness. Even a defeat is not necessarily a bar. For example, Wilson whilst being removed from forming a Government remained in leadership of the Labour party, and eventually took it back to Government, albeit briefly before his alzheimers really started kicking in.

 

Its a very modern idea that a losing candiate for PM should vacate the leadership, but its not always been like that. I think Corbyn is likely to stick like shit to a blanket, with all the predictable effects its going to have on Labour. And if he does leave, it will be only to leave the seat to an accolyte like Keir Starmer or McDonnell.

 

I used to respect Foot, even though he was a complete dinosaur, at least he was intelligent and at least he was passionate. That was before I discovered he was a proven KGB source of course. Some of the outlandish conspiracy theories that Frederick Forsyth came up with about Labour in the early 1980's were not so far off base. We really dont need to go back there and repeat the same tired mistakes, but it seems thats where they are going.


Edited by Stuart Galbraith, Yesterday, 08:22 AM.

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#6262 Jeff

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Posted Yesterday, 10:50 AM

The problem is, about 5 years ago, Labour 'reformed' its voting system. Previously you had (this is my imperfect understanding of it that might be quite wrong) you had a block system. The unions had some votes, the Mp's some votes, the membership had some votes. Now, only the membership of the Labour party has votes. Which, considering the Union guys are probably all Labour members anyway, and you can have everyone from Tony Blair to crypto communists being members (there has even been allegations of rigging by the Russians) then it clearly favoured Corbyn. So if Labour loses at the next election, he might refuse to resign, or put it up for a vote and find himself right back in the same job. Or it will go to John McDonnell who a few years ago vowed to end Capitalism. Which as he is the shadow treasury secretary is not particularly comforting. :D

 

Labour about 10 years ago was a mild left of centre political group, it was more liberal middle ground than Socialist. Today, its far closer to Communism, at least in the Leadership, than it has been at any time since the 1920's. Unless something dramatic changes, and my guess it wont, Labour is heading for the electoral wilderness. Whether those votes will migrate to the liberals or a rebranded Brexit party, remains to be seen.

 

Hope some of that helps. I doubt we have seen the end of Corbynism, even if we see the end of Corbyn regrettably.

 

Thanks! Sounds like a real cluster.


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#6263 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted Yesterday, 10:53 AM

Yep.

 

You can imagine what its like having to live through the absolute torture of the election campaign. We have a basic choice between a certified idiot and a Communist. Its hard to get enthused about the options, you know?


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#6264 Panzermann

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Posted Yesterday, 08:51 PM

Yep.

 

You can imagine what its like having to live through the absolute torture of the election campaign. We have a basic choice between a certified idiot and a Communist. Its hard to get enthused about the options, you know?

 

Isn't a first past the post just great? (not that the proportional system was always better, looking at the current german federal government)

 

 

 

Though I think Corbyn's appeal within the Labour is, that he is most certainly and certifiably not a Blairite nor "New Labour".


Edited by Panzermann, Yesterday, 08:54 PM.

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#6265 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted Today, 03:17 AM

Its not a first past the post system I have a problem with. It prevents the arrival of new parties, which is a bad thing. But it prevents also the rise of far right parties that numerous other European nations have to contend with. Which by and large, I dont think a bad thing.

 

In essence what has happened with Labour is that its been a hostile takeover by the far left, lacking the votes and legitimacy to get into Parliament on their own. I fear the far right may do the same with the Conservative party at some point, at which point yes, we are going to want to ditch the first past the post system. Some suggest this has already happened, but I dont. I dont believe Bojo is intelligent enough to be a fascist.

 

Corbyn's appeal is that he is different. He believes its Governments role to interfere in policies that, since Thatcher, Government has believed it has no right to interfere in. Perhaps In some of those areas, such as infrastructure investment, he is clearly right. In others, such as nationalizing absolutely everything he can get away with, he is absolutely cracked.


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#6266 Rick

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Posted Today, 05:13 AM

"I think, myself, that we have more machinery of government than is necessary, too many parasites living on the labor of the industrious." --Thomas Jefferson to W. Ludlow, 1824.


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#6267 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted Today, 05:26 AM

I think a Governments interaction with the economy must be like a Gardener. That it should be light on the tiller, it should when necessary be influential, but it should resolve itself to pruning and watering when necessary, perhaps encouraging the growth of various plants as necessary. But not overdoing it. You let nature do the heavy lifting.

 

We have have done for some 40 years is saying 'well we dont need to water, because nature does that. We can take our hands off and pull up a deckchair and let nature take care of itself'. And you end up with a garden of tangled weeds. Which is great if you like weeds, except you kind of wonder what the point of having a Government at all is unless it actually applies itself occasionally to the business of Governing.

Im no fan of the Corbyn/Old labour style either,  of 'lets do everything, because nothing can exist without us'. Equally I think the hands off 'Lets do nothing it might be bad' approach has increasingly little to commend it either, at least in the British context.

 

There is a lot more I could say about that, but why drag a good thread off on a tangent again.


Edited by Stuart Galbraith, Today, 06:19 AM.

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#6268 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted Today, 06:18 AM

https://www.standard...y-a4308896.html

Boris Johnson has been criticised for taking a reporter's phone and putting it in his pocket as he refused to look at a photo of a child who had to sleep on a hospital floor.

The Prime Minister was being interviewed by ITV News political correspondent Joe Pike, who asked Mr Johnson to look at a photo of four-year-old Jack as he waited for a bed at Leeds General Infirmary.

His mother Sarah Williment had taken him there last Tuesday fearing he had pneumonia and while they waited, had covered him with coats to keep warm 

Mr Johnson did not look down at the photo on Mr Pike’s phone, instead saying he would “study it later” as he attempted to steer the conversation on to Tory investment in the NHS.

 

In a clip of the interview posted on Twitter, Mr Pike said to Mr Johnson: “You refuse to look at the photo. You’ve taken my phone and put it in your pocket Prime Minister.”

Mr Johnson then took the phone out of his pocket, looked at the photo on the screen, and said: “It’s a terrible, terrible photo. And I apologise obviously to the families and all those who have terrible experiences in the NHS.

“But what we are doing is supporting the NHS, and on the whole I think patients in the NHS have a much, much better experience than this poor kid has had.

“That’s why we’re making huge investments into the NHS, and we can only do it if we get Parliament going, if we unblock the current deadlock, and we move forward.”

At the end of the interview, Mr Johnson said: “I’m sorry to have taken your phone. There you go.”

In a Q and A on Monday afternoon, Mr Johnson was asked twice about the phone incident, and on both occasions refused to directly address what was being asked, instead choosing to talk about Tory plans to invest in the NHS.

 

 

 

I swear, at moments like these, I honestly wonder if the Conservatives want to win at all. :unsure:


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#6269 DB

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Posted Today, 12:16 PM

The whole story of the child on the floor needs to be understood before jumping on the outrage bus.

He was waiting in A&E, in turn until it was thought he might have pneumonia. He was admitted, found a bed then reassessed. Reassessment decided he didn't have pneumonia, so he was taken out of the bed and given back to his parents, who put him on the floor themselves then jumped on the outrage bus.
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#6270 rmgill

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Posted Today, 12:51 PM

I swear, at moments like these, I honestly wonder if the Conservatives want to win at all. :unsure:


I see your funny anecdote and raise you the Labour Party Report on Anti-semitism.

https://www.scribd.c...ion-to-the-EHRC

It's a wonder that Labour doesn't want to be arrested en masse and jailed for violation of hate speech laws that they themselves endorse.
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#6271 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted Today, 01:12 PM

The whole story of the child on the floor needs to be understood before jumping on the outrage bus.
He was waiting in A&E, in turn until it was thought he might have pneumonia. He was admitted, found a bed then reassessed. Reassessment decided he didn't have pneumonia, so he was taken out of the bed and given back to his parents, who put him on the floor themselves then jumped on the outrage bus.


I don't know what to make of it. There was a claim I heard on the BBC that a member of hospital staff claimed she put the child on the ground and took a photo. But checking back on the person who sent the messsage, they claimed their phone had been hacked. Which might be true, or perhaps belatedly realised they put their job at risk.

I could say Bojo's response was callous, but hey, so has Corbyns response to antisemitism.
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#6272 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted Today, 01:18 PM

I swear, at moments like these, I honestly wonder if the Conservatives want to win at all. :unsure:

I see your funny anecdote and raise you the Labour Party Report on Anti-semitism.https://www.scribd.c...ion-to-the-EHRCIt's a wonder that Labour doesn't want to be arrested en masse and jailed for violation of hate speech laws that they themselves endorse.
You don't need to raise me anything, I see no reason to defend Corbyn on this issue. I will say one must not mistake all Labour MPs as supporting antisemitism. There are still moderates that have not been purged yet. Not all the far left are antisemites, just the ones that are close to Corbyn.

Given time, yes they will be purged. Which is why I'm praying for an epic Labour defeat.

Edited by Stuart Galbraith, Today, 01:19 PM.

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