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#6261 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 09 December 2019 - 0817 AM

Blaire Labour was effectively a social democrat platform, with at least some pretentions of fiscal prudence - relatively speaking, anyway. It squeezed the Liberal Democrat vote by being more centrist, putting it between the LDs and Tory policies on the usual one dimensional scale.

Previously, Labour was dominated by Union block votes, which gave them the likes of the unelectable Michael Foot, a Corbyn precursor with better manners and worse dress sense.

Thatcher's reforms broke the union stranglehold through what the US calls right to work policies, but most particularly, allowing union members to opt out of mandatory subscriptions to Labour in their union dues.

Anyway, Corbyn was elected by the Labour membership, largely against the wishes of the parliamentary party (ie Labour MPs). Obviously, since he became leader, there has been a migration of support towards him in the parliamentary party because of how Look about selects candidates.

It's unclear to me how his rank and file support will change on a defeat. If he had been electable, he'd have won the last election. That didn't shift him, do why should this?

Yeah, the Labour Parliamentarians didnt want him. OK, a few nominated him to give what they figured would be a broadband of respresentation in the election runoff. But none of them expected him to win. It really was a Trump like result nobody saw coming.

 

He didnt shift last time because he increased the Labour share of the votes, and gained seats. Its not uncommon in those circumstances in the past for Labour leaders to remain in harness. Even a defeat is not necessarily a bar. For example, Wilson whilst being removed from forming a Government remained in leadership of the Labour party, and eventually took it back to Government, albeit briefly before his alzheimers really started kicking in.

 

Its a very modern idea that a losing candiate for PM should vacate the leadership, but its not always been like that. I think Corbyn is likely to stick like shit to a blanket, with all the predictable effects its going to have on Labour. And if he does leave, it will be only to leave the seat to an accolyte like Keir Starmer or McDonnell.

 

I used to respect Foot, even though he was a complete dinosaur, at least he was intelligent and at least he was passionate. That was before I discovered he was a proven KGB source of course. Some of the outlandish conspiracy theories that Frederick Forsyth came up with about Labour in the early 1980's were not so far off base. We really dont need to go back there and repeat the same tired mistakes, but it seems thats where they are going.


Edited by Stuart Galbraith, 09 December 2019 - 0822 AM.

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#6262 Jeff

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Posted 09 December 2019 - 1050 AM

The problem is, about 5 years ago, Labour 'reformed' its voting system. Previously you had (this is my imperfect understanding of it that might be quite wrong) you had a block system. The unions had some votes, the Mp's some votes, the membership had some votes. Now, only the membership of the Labour party has votes. Which, considering the Union guys are probably all Labour members anyway, and you can have everyone from Tony Blair to crypto communists being members (there has even been allegations of rigging by the Russians) then it clearly favoured Corbyn. So if Labour loses at the next election, he might refuse to resign, or put it up for a vote and find himself right back in the same job. Or it will go to John McDonnell who a few years ago vowed to end Capitalism. Which as he is the shadow treasury secretary is not particularly comforting. :D

 

Labour about 10 years ago was a mild left of centre political group, it was more liberal middle ground than Socialist. Today, its far closer to Communism, at least in the Leadership, than it has been at any time since the 1920's. Unless something dramatic changes, and my guess it wont, Labour is heading for the electoral wilderness. Whether those votes will migrate to the liberals or a rebranded Brexit party, remains to be seen.

 

Hope some of that helps. I doubt we have seen the end of Corbynism, even if we see the end of Corbyn regrettably.

 

Thanks! Sounds like a real cluster.


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#6263 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 09 December 2019 - 1053 AM

Yep.

 

You can imagine what its like having to live through the absolute torture of the election campaign. We have a basic choice between a certified idiot and a Communist. Its hard to get enthused about the options, you know?


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#6264 Panzermann

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Posted 09 December 2019 - 2051 PM

Yep.

 

You can imagine what its like having to live through the absolute torture of the election campaign. We have a basic choice between a certified idiot and a Communist. Its hard to get enthused about the options, you know?

 

Isn't a first past the post just great? (not that the proportional system was always better, looking at the current german federal government)

 

 

 

Though I think Corbyn's appeal within the Labour is, that he is most certainly and certifiably not a Blairite nor "New Labour".


Edited by Panzermann, 09 December 2019 - 2054 PM.

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#6265 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 10 December 2019 - 0317 AM

Its not a first past the post system I have a problem with. It prevents the arrival of new parties, which is a bad thing. But it prevents also the rise of far right parties that numerous other European nations have to contend with. Which by and large, I dont think a bad thing.

 

In essence what has happened with Labour is that its been a hostile takeover by the far left, lacking the votes and legitimacy to get into Parliament on their own. I fear the far right may do the same with the Conservative party at some point, at which point yes, we are going to want to ditch the first past the post system. Some suggest this has already happened, but I dont. I dont believe Bojo is intelligent enough to be a fascist.

 

Corbyn's appeal is that he is different. He believes its Governments role to interfere in policies that, since Thatcher, Government has believed it has no right to interfere in. Perhaps In some of those areas, such as infrastructure investment, he is clearly right. In others, such as nationalizing absolutely everything he can get away with, he is absolutely cracked.


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#6266 Rick

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Posted 10 December 2019 - 0513 AM

"I think, myself, that we have more machinery of government than is necessary, too many parasites living on the labor of the industrious." --Thomas Jefferson to W. Ludlow, 1824.


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#6267 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 10 December 2019 - 0526 AM

I think a Governments interaction with the economy must be like a Gardener. That it should be light on the tiller, it should when necessary be influential, but it should resolve itself to pruning and watering when necessary, perhaps encouraging the growth of various plants as necessary. But not overdoing it. You let nature do the heavy lifting.

 

We have have done for some 40 years is saying 'well we dont need to water, because nature does that. We can take our hands off and pull up a deckchair and let nature take care of itself'. And you end up with a garden of tangled weeds. Which is great if you like weeds, except you kind of wonder what the point of having a Government at all is unless it actually applies itself occasionally to the business of Governing.

Im no fan of the Corbyn/Old labour style either,  of 'lets do everything, because nothing can exist without us'. Equally I think the hands off 'Lets do nothing it might be bad' approach has increasingly little to commend it either, at least in the British context.

 

There is a lot more I could say about that, but why drag a good thread off on a tangent again.


Edited by Stuart Galbraith, 10 December 2019 - 0619 AM.

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#6268 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 10 December 2019 - 0618 AM

https://www.standard...y-a4308896.html

Boris Johnson has been criticised for taking a reporter's phone and putting it in his pocket as he refused to look at a photo of a child who had to sleep on a hospital floor.

The Prime Minister was being interviewed by ITV News political correspondent Joe Pike, who asked Mr Johnson to look at a photo of four-year-old Jack as he waited for a bed at Leeds General Infirmary.

His mother Sarah Williment had taken him there last Tuesday fearing he had pneumonia and while they waited, had covered him with coats to keep warm 

Mr Johnson did not look down at the photo on Mr Pike’s phone, instead saying he would “study it later” as he attempted to steer the conversation on to Tory investment in the NHS.

 

In a clip of the interview posted on Twitter, Mr Pike said to Mr Johnson: “You refuse to look at the photo. You’ve taken my phone and put it in your pocket Prime Minister.”

Mr Johnson then took the phone out of his pocket, looked at the photo on the screen, and said: “It’s a terrible, terrible photo. And I apologise obviously to the families and all those who have terrible experiences in the NHS.

“But what we are doing is supporting the NHS, and on the whole I think patients in the NHS have a much, much better experience than this poor kid has had.

“That’s why we’re making huge investments into the NHS, and we can only do it if we get Parliament going, if we unblock the current deadlock, and we move forward.”

At the end of the interview, Mr Johnson said: “I’m sorry to have taken your phone. There you go.”

In a Q and A on Monday afternoon, Mr Johnson was asked twice about the phone incident, and on both occasions refused to directly address what was being asked, instead choosing to talk about Tory plans to invest in the NHS.

 

 

 

I swear, at moments like these, I honestly wonder if the Conservatives want to win at all. :unsure:


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#6269 DB

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Posted 10 December 2019 - 1216 PM

The whole story of the child on the floor needs to be understood before jumping on the outrage bus.

He was waiting in A&E, in turn until it was thought he might have pneumonia. He was admitted, found a bed then reassessed. Reassessment decided he didn't have pneumonia, so he was taken out of the bed and given back to his parents, who put him on the floor themselves then jumped on the outrage bus.
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#6270 rmgill

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Posted 10 December 2019 - 1251 PM

I swear, at moments like these, I honestly wonder if the Conservatives want to win at all. :unsure:


I see your funny anecdote and raise you the Labour Party Report on Anti-semitism.

https://www.scribd.c...ion-to-the-EHRC

It's a wonder that Labour doesn't want to be arrested en masse and jailed for violation of hate speech laws that they themselves endorse.
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#6271 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 10 December 2019 - 1312 PM

The whole story of the child on the floor needs to be understood before jumping on the outrage bus.
He was waiting in A&E, in turn until it was thought he might have pneumonia. He was admitted, found a bed then reassessed. Reassessment decided he didn't have pneumonia, so he was taken out of the bed and given back to his parents, who put him on the floor themselves then jumped on the outrage bus.


I don't know what to make of it. There was a claim I heard on the BBC that a member of hospital staff claimed she put the child on the ground and took a photo. But checking back on the person who sent the messsage, they claimed their phone had been hacked. Which might be true, or perhaps belatedly realised they put their job at risk.

I could say Bojo's response was callous, but hey, so has Corbyns response to antisemitism.
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#6272 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 10 December 2019 - 1318 PM

I swear, at moments like these, I honestly wonder if the Conservatives want to win at all. :unsure:

I see your funny anecdote and raise you the Labour Party Report on Anti-semitism.https://www.scribd.c...ion-to-the-EHRCIt's a wonder that Labour doesn't want to be arrested en masse and jailed for violation of hate speech laws that they themselves endorse.
You don't need to raise me anything, I see no reason to defend Corbyn on this issue. I will say one must not mistake all Labour MPs as supporting antisemitism. There are still moderates that have not been purged yet. Not all the far left are antisemites, just the ones that are close to Corbyn.

Given time, yes they will be purged. Which is why I'm praying for an epic Labour defeat.

Edited by Stuart Galbraith, 10 December 2019 - 1319 PM.

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#6273 rmgill

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Posted 11 December 2019 - 0158 AM

There are still moderates that have not been purged yet.


The moderates will be purged from Labour? Leaving what, only the radical, anti-semetic communists and crypto-socialists?
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#6274 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 11 December 2019 - 0311 AM

Yes. That is arguably what Corbyn has been trying to do. For example, there has been an escalating campaign against Jews in Labour, even before Corbyn came to power. Not all admittedly originating in labour, but they dont seem to have been proactive in trying to deal with it.  MP Luciana Berger (whom seems a pretty straight bat as Labour MP's go) is a case in point.

https://en.wikipedia.../Luciana_Berger

Antisemitic abuse


Berger has described receiving a 'torrent of anti-Semitic abuse' since her selection and election as MP.[71]

In January 2013, a Merseyside music promoter, Philip Hayes was convicted of a racially aggravated public order offence and fined £120 after making a series of antisemitic remarks about Jews to Berger at the Liverpool Music Awards. He later apologised and said he had been drunk and was acting out of character.[72][73]

In October 2014, Garron Helm, a member of the neo-Nazi National Action youth group, was imprisoned for four weeks after he sent an antisemitic tweet to Berger in August 2014. He served two weeks before being released.[74][75][76]

Following the conviction, it was reported that similar messages to her were being posted on Twitter.[77] According to Berger in December 2014, "[a]t the height of the abuse, the police said I was the subject of 2,500 hate messages in the space of three days" using the same hashtag.[78] She has had to take security measures where she lives in Liverpool and London, and has accused Twitter of insufficient action to counter the problem. In her view, the site "could start by proactively banning racist words which aren't allowed to be printed in newspapers or broadcast on TV that could never be used in a positive way".[78]

During the 2015 general election, right-wing UK Independence Party parliamentary candidate for West Lancashire Jack Sen was suspended from the party after sending an allegedly antisemitic tweet to Berger.[79]

Joshua Bonehill-Paine, a supporter of Helm and a self-described far-right antisemite, was convicted of racially aggravated harassment of Berger in December 2016. He was sentenced to two years.[80][81]

In February 2017, John Nimmo was sentenced to 27 months in prison after pleading guilty to nine charges, including sending Berger death threats and antisemitic messages signed "your friend the Nazi".[82]

After Berger asked Jeremy Corbyn's office in March 2018 why in 2012 he had queried the removal by a local council of an allegedly antisemitic mural by Mear One, she received further online abuse which she stated came from left-wing individuals.[83][84] She has noted the "volume and toxicity of stuff that come[s] from the left for daring to speak out, for daring to address this" and that "people believe there is a place for anti-Semitism on the left.[85] She also noted the anti-Semitic abuse she had received from Twitter accounts with the hashtag 'JC4PM', a hashtag promoting support for Jeremy Corbyn in his prime ministerial campaign.[85]

In July 2018, Jack Coulson, a teenager obsessed with neo-Nazism and who allegedly had told an acquaintance that he was going to kill Berger, was jailed for eight-and-a-half months for possessing a document for terrorist purposes. He had a past conviction for making a pipe bomb.[86]

 

 

No confidence motions


On 7 February 2019, Berger's Liverpool Wavertree constituency announced that two motions of no confidence in her had been submitted by local members, both condemning her for "continually" criticising the Labour Party leader.[87] Both motions were withdrawn. While both motions referred to Berger's attacks on the party leadership, John McDonnell suggested that speculation that Berger was considering co-founding a breakaway party was a factor. Louise Ellman, another Liverpool Jewish Labour MP, claimed that the motive had been antisemitic.[88] Labour's deputy leader, Tom Watson, defended Berger in the Commons, saying she had "our solidarity, our support, as she battles the bullying and hatred from members of her own local party. They bring disgrace to the party I love."[89] Former Labour Prime Minister Tony Blair called Berger's treatment "shameful", and said: "The fact that someone like Luciana Berger – who is a smart, capable, active member of parliament doing her best for her constituents – the fact that she should even be subject to a no-confidence motion with this type of allegation swirling around is shameful for the Labour party."[90]

 

 

 

That is how people who criticise the Dear Leader are treated in labour now. Not surprisingly she jumped ship first to Change UK, then to the Liberals, and good luck to her.

 

Hilary Benn, Tony Benn's considerably less firebrand son, has been treated little better.

https://en.wikipedia...iki/Hilary_Benn

 

On 25 June 2016, The Observer revealed that Benn "called fellow MPs over the weekend to suggest that he will ask Corbyn to stand down if there is significant support for a move against the leader. He has also asked shadow cabinet colleagues to join him in resigning if the Labour leader ignores that request."[62] During a phone call in the early hours of 26 June, Benn told Corbyn that Labour MPs and shadow cabinet members had "no confidence in our ability to win the election" under his leadership. Corbyn then dismissed Benn from his position as Shadow Foreign Secretary. In a statement issued at 03:30, Benn said: "It has now become clear that there is widespread concern among Labour MPs and in the shadow cabinet about Jeremy Corbyn's leadership of our party. In particular, there is no confidence in our ability to win the next election, which may come much sooner than expected, if Jeremy continues as leader."[63] Later in the morning, Heidi Alexander, the Shadow Secretary of State for Health, also resigned. Throughout the day, a further eight members of the shadow cabinet resigned.[64]


Edited by Stuart Galbraith, 11 December 2019 - 0319 AM.

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#6275 DB

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Posted 11 December 2019 - 0443 AM

Corbyn's response to Hilary Benn is perfectly reasonable. Once a subordinate has stated that he has no confidence in your leadership, there is little choice.

There is an underlying streak of anti semitism in some sectors of British society. The reasons are various, including those people who cannot separate their hand-wringing, media-manipulated, but somewhat supportable, view of Gaza and the West Bank from out-and-out blanket attacks on Jewish people.

In this respect, the Labour party political position is that they are anti-Zionist, not anti-Semitic. It suits some on the Zionist side (defined as supporting Israel with minimal/no critical view of some of its actions) to insist that this is a distinction with no difference, but it's also used as a cover by those who genuinely want Labour to be free of "Jewish influence". The latter may be in part due to the Jewish members being seen as moderates, but there may also be religiously motivated factors.

Corbyn probably believes that everything is just fine, and it's ok to be nasty to people who support Israel.
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#6276 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 11 December 2019 - 0503 AM

Yes, but clearly Hilary Benn was within his rights to point this out. After all, as we are seeing right now, it is almost certainly is true, Labour are not going to win. That most of the shadow cabinet subsequently resigned  to my mind indicates they believed he was right too, and was hard done by. When Geoffry Howe did what amounts to the same thing to Margaret Thatcher, said she was taking the party in the wrong direction, nobody said he was unjustified. In fact most of the Conservative party agreed with him by that point.

 

Equally I think much of Labour party still agrees with Benn if Jon Ashworth is any guide.

https://www.leiceste...cretary-3626933

 

I dont understand why the Labour party has tied itself up like this over Israel. My position has always been, hands off Israel, hands off Palestine. There, its easy. Not need to invoke antizionism, or antisemitism.  Israel has a perfect right to exist, just as we have a perfect right to criticize it when we feel its necessary over its interaction with Palestine. Just treat Israel as a rather strangely placed European nation, and its religion as secondary and irrelevant to our policy. Which is a fiction, but one perhaps that has more going for it than engaging with it in the fractured and schizophrenic way that we have.


Edited by Stuart Galbraith, 11 December 2019 - 0504 AM.

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#6277 rmgill

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Posted 11 December 2019 - 0857 AM


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#6278 rmgill

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Posted 11 December 2019 - 0859 AM

I dont understand why the Labour party has tied itself up like this over Israel. My position has always been, hands off Israel, hands off Palestine. There, its easy. Not need to invoke antizionism, or antisemitism.  Israel has a perfect right to exist, just as we have a perfect right to criticize it when we feel its necessary over its interaction with Palestine. Just treat Israel as a rather strangely placed European nation, and its religion as secondary and irrelevant to our policy. Which is a fiction, but one perhaps that has more going for it than engaging with it in the fractured and schizophrenic way that we have.


Socialist and Communists have a grand vision for how the world should be ordered. Everyone should be put in their place.
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#6279 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 11 December 2019 - 1019 AM

Here we go again with the epic conflation. You will never accept that people who are Socialist can find Communists equally unpalatable as Conservatives. Who do you think were the people responsible for setting up NATO and giving Britain the A Bomb? Goddamn Socialists, those peacenik bastards. :D

 

As even the Daily Express have noticed, to their credit, Corbyn's claim he is turning the clock back to 1945 cuts no ice. Attlee would be infuriated by Corbyn's position on NATO, and much else besides.

https://www.express....ection-2019-spt

 

Historian and biographer of Mr Attlee, Professor John Bew, recently wrote on Policy Exchange: “The Attlee government did more than any other to make good on the notion of ‘collective security’, which had failed with devastating consequences in the Thirties.

 

It did so through firm and decisive action, leading the way on the formation of Nato but doing so with the closest possible cooperation with the United States; and even when the rules set by the UN were flouted, sending British troops to the Korean War as part of an international force.

“These were not easy choices – the cost of rearmament caused great division within the government, and ate into the budget of the NHS – but the UK proved its mettle in building the post-1945

order.

 

 

“In the business of international relations, Attlee and Ernie Bevin understood, platitudes, passivity and plausible twaddle only go so far.”

Mr Bew argued that Mr Corbyn, nor John McDonnell or Labour’s Executive Director of Strategy and Communications Seamus Milnes, have never been part of that tradition, or anywhere near it.

He added: “In fact, the current sect at the top of the Labour Party represent a direct threat to the survival of Labour’s internationalist soul.

"Their foreign policy offering is not only incoherent; it is disingenuous because they are failing to tell the public what they really think – both about the West and its binding institutions (such as Nato), and also about those whose 'resistance' against the West they have lauded so often in the past."

 

 

And we must do so again. But not whilst we have a Trotskyist like Corbyn or a feckless fool like Bojo at the helm.


Edited by Stuart Galbraith, 11 December 2019 - 1024 AM.

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#6280 Stuart Galbraith

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Posted 11 December 2019 - 1037 AM

Conservatives predicted to have a 28 seat majority. A majority to be sure, but perhaps not nearly as decisive as Bojo wants or needs. I vaguely recall the last attempt to push the Brexit deal through lost by 28 seats.

 

https://www.express....deo-brexit-news


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