2624 replies to this topic

[Chris Werb]

Meanwhile, Lt. Gen. Ben Hodges, the Army’s commander in Europe, told Defense News in an interview last week in Poland during its national military exercise Anakonda, that “I have zero rocket launchers. I have no [Multiple Rocket Launcher System launch pods], no HIMARS, nothing. The only HIMARS we have is a National Guard unit that came over for the exercise.”

Artillery and long-range fires capabilities fell by the wayside while the US Army focused on fighting the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, Hodges explained, when less emphasis was placed on those capabilities in order to focus on brigades. “I can just tell you the fact that we went down to two brigades, two brigades total in Europe, with no fires brigade because Russia was our partner,” he said.

Russia is no longer a partner and a conflict with the country would mean a need for a strong fires capability. But it's an uphill battle getting those requirements in Europe filled, according to Hodges, because convincing Congress to bring over a fires brigade to Europe as the Army shrinks would not be easy.

While the Army may not be buying new HIMARS systems anytime soon, Hodges said his command will be getting a fires brigade worth of equipment to be kept in Army Prepositioned Stock for rotational forces. “That will help address the concern in case of a crisis,” he said. He estimates that will be put in place within the next three years.

http://www.defensene...arly Bird Brief

[Talyn]

Sad state of affairs.

 

Obama phones, etc. won out over MLRS/HIMARS over the last 7.5 yrs.

 

$10 trillion of additional National debt and really nothing tangible to show for it.

[rmgill]

Shit, why not adopt the cheaper truck mounted units for NG units? Adds capability without as much cost and the Logistics vehicle platforms are well accepted. 

[Chris Werb]

There are a lot of fails here, I started to type them, but it got too long winded. What we need to do urgently is:

 

1. Get the German SMART AT submunition MLRS into service.

2. Buy lots of the new Alternative Warhead variant.

3. Rethink retiring the AT-2 anti tank mine version and, if treaty compliant, come up with a GMLRS version thereof.

4. Buy lots of the SDB-I variant and investigate feasibility of an SDB-II version..

5. Get the new 500km rocket into service with both unitary and Alternative warheads ASAP.

6. Replace M270 with HIMARS as time and funds permit

7. On this side of the pond, rethink cuts to MLRS launcher vehicle fleets and munition stocks. We are down to about 36 M270s and cut back rocket stocks to 1200 pending the introduction of the (now cancelled) Fireshadow suicide UAV, France 13(!), Denmark and the Netherlands zero (sold to Finland) and Norway zero (stored, inactive), Germany, down to 50 from 202.

8. Fund the dormant P44 long range strike missile.

9. Fund a thermobaric GMLRS.

10. Ensure we have trained plenty of stay-behind forward observers in the Baltic republics and Poland equipped them with covert means of communcation.

[Panzermann]

Germany has stored about 50 in Addition to the active vehicles. Don't know if the other vehicles have been sold yet.

But trained artillerymen do not grow on trees and NATO as a whole looks short on artillery. Tubes are not many in service as well. e.g. Germany has a whopping half dozen mortar Wiesel in service....


Agree on getting more and more diversified ammuniitons into service and training baltic, polish, romanian reserves/national guard/whatever they are called as forward observers is a good idea.


continue LIMAWS® development?

Edited by Panzermann, 20 June 2016 - 1256 PM.

[Panzermann]

Shit, why not adopt the cheaper truck mounted units for NG units? Adds capability without as much cost and the Logistics vehicle platforms are well accepted. 

US National Guard artillery regiments field HIMARS as well as a few active US army arty units.

[Stuart Galbraith]

As you say, Norway had 12 MLRS put in storage that were bought but never used IIRC. Might have been up for sale.

 

Wonder if you could bolt a thermometric warhead on Stormshadow or am I being unhealthily Gerry Anderson here?

[bd1]

estonia has not signed to cluster munitions ban, just ship them here for safekeeping.  esp. 155mm. ones, our stocks are probably not too high  

Edited by bd1, 20 June 2016 - 1403 PM.

[Adam Peter]

6. Replace M270 with HIMARS as time and funds permit

 

Why replace? Grads are working, too.

[carrierlost]

Some more interesting pictures/videos from Saber Strike 16 taking place in Estonia.

 

As HIMARS has been discussed above, this year for the first time they were flown in for the exercise from US.

 

 

A-10 Warthogs have been here before, but this year they also practiced landing/take-off from regular roads which has not been practiced since 1980s.

 

 

 

 

Video can be viewed here:

http://uudised.err.e...avate-maanteele

 

B-52 also took part in exercises:

 

Video of Styker MGS live fire exercise:
https://www.dvidshub...eo/embed/470494

 

 

Live fire demonstration of HIMARS / M777 / A-10  / Apache:

Edited by carrierlost, 20 June 2016 - 1502 PM.

[Panzermann]

6. Replace M270 with HIMARS as time and funds permit

 
Why replace? Grads are working, too.

Grad is short range compared to MLRS. Not that having lots of Grad or similar on hand is a bad idea.

But the Royal Artillery never fielded Grad.

Edited by Panzermann, 20 June 2016 - 1504 PM.

[Panzermann]

160609-F-QS677-350
BALTIC SEA (June 9, 2016) A United States Air Force B52 Stratofortress leads a formation of aircraft including two Polish air force F16 Fighting Falcons, four U.S. Air Force F16 Fighting Falcons, two German Eurofighter Typhoons and four Swedish Gripens over the Baltic Sea, June 9, 2016. (U.S. Air Force photo/Senior Airman Erin Babis)

[Cinaruco]

So, with just 50 Grad and 5 Smerch launchers, Venezuela has more MLRS than several NATO nations?

[Damian]

Ekhm, ekhm, ekhm. If NATO countries want more MLRS types weapons, Poland can provide, we manufacture and offer both WR-40 Langusta and WR-40 Langusta-2.

 

WR-40 series are modernized BM-21 Grad, with extended range, and can be mounted on various platforms. The WR-40 Langusta-2 offers also rapid reload capability with it's autoloader.

 

Of course it's not M270/M142 capabilities, but still better than nothing.

 

We also plan to purchase M270/M142 equivalent the WR-300 Homar. Right now most likely it will be M142 launcher on our own truck.

Edited by Damian, 21 June 2016 - 0725 AM.

[bojan]

Grad and M270 are different level, Grad and clones are Bde level asset (locally each mech Bde had 12 M77 Oganj which is comparable sistem), M270 is Div level. Damian, WR-40 has same type of quick loader as Czech RM-70 right?

Edited by bojan, 21 June 2016 - 1726 PM.

[Chris Werb]

I would just give surplus NATO M270s to Poland (if they want them) and the Baltic states. That way, strategic and operational mobility of the tracked platforms is much less important than it would otherwise be.

 

Interesting article about effects of NATO ban on cluster munitions. AFAIK the US has not invested in artillery delivered sensor fused munitions, although it has introduced an "Alternative" warhead for the MLRS that regains some of the capability lost with the withdrawal of the M26,M28 and M30 submunition  rockets.

 

http://www.benning.a...C/Jacobson.html

[Damian]

 

 

Damian, WR-40 has same type of quick loader as Czech RM-70 right?

 

WR-40 Langusta-2 uses RM-70 autoloader system.

 

 

 

I would just give surplus NATO M270s to Poland (if they want them) and the Baltic states. That way, strategic and operational mobility of the tracked platforms is much less important than it would otherwise be.

 

Yeah we can take them.

[Simon Tan]

A Direct Support Artillery Battalion for a manouevre brigade will benefit greatly from a 6-launcher BM-21 class MRL battery. It does stuff like lay smoke and deliver HE in a way that 155s do not.  

[lastdingo]

Grad and M270 are different level, Grad and clones are Bde level asset (locally each mech Bde had 12 M77 Oganj which is comparable sistem), M270 is Div level.

That's no nature's law, though. Planners merely thought that the range fits to the size of areas/frontages that fit to a division - back in the 1980's.
Nowadays that size fits to brigades, and the extended range of GUMLRS (80 km, maybe even 100 km - depends on whom you listen to and atmospheric conditions) doesn't hurt for a Bde level asset either. It means one brigade could support a neighbour Bde's neighbour Bde with fires..

The classic tracked and protected vehicles also have an advantage over the trucks that's substantial; they could be used with thermobaric munitions the same way the Russians employ their TOS-1s.

And this is where the ability to support horizontally (Bde supporting Bde instead of lower level) is important; the Bde in combat could employ its MRLs for short range thermobaric munitions fires, Bdes farther away could support it GP PGMs and Bdes held in reserve could keep their MRLs busy firing 500 km missiles as part of the air warfare planning.

[bojan]

So, who uses M270 as Bde asset?