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alt-hist c&rsenal pre-WW1

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#701 Simon Tan

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Posted 11 February 2020 - 2125 PM

Err, you want one that shares magazines? Otherwise they already have their Colt Govt. Models of 1911. Double stacking a .45ACP is going to be a really hefty grip unless we use some sort of imperfect stack. 

 

Machine carbines have supplanted rifles in many non-combat roles and taskings which in turn has allowed us to build up a useful war reserve of older bolt action rifles in 7mm Mauser as well as surplusage oddities like the M1915 Savage lever rifles and even older Peabody-Martinis. Next in line for surplusage are the Mannlicher M95 conversions. Our surplus policy is to open sales to service personnel and reservists, then the general public after a year and finally whatever is left after 2 years for export.

 

On a somewhat unrelated note, an Austrian chap named Thomanek has come to the Tankovina Institute of Sciences to pursue his idea for a 'hollow charge' armour piercing round using explosive energy to form some sort of penetrating jet of material. It looks like a way to converting chemical energy into a focussed kinetic effect which if true, will allow high levels of armour penetration without high kinetic energy in the projectile. Ideal for use with something like a rifle grenade. 


Edited by Simon Tan, 11 February 2020 - 2148 PM.

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#702 Markus Becker

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Posted 12 February 2020 - 0538 AM

The M1911 just has single stack magazine. They like the ammo capacity of the M1925 double stack magazine and would like to have that in .45 ACP handgun. Since we don't have such a gun may we negotiate an agreement with Savage Arms for the manufacture/conversion of the M1925? Provided they are interested which they probably are. The FBI is quite the prestigious customer. Adoption by the FBI is excellent advertising and Savage already has one iron in that fire with the Model 40 carbine. One and a half since they make the M1932 and 35.  


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#703 Markus Becker

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Posted 12 February 2020 - 0555 AM

The small arms of Tankovia:

 

Pistols:

 

Liberator: Double action Savage Model 1917 in .32 ACP and 9mm kurz, commercial firearm

M1922: Steyer 1912 with a DBM in 9mm Luger

M1925: M1922 with a double stack magazine, export firearm

 

 

Machine carbines: All in 9mm Luger. All sorts of pistol calibers available for export. 

 

M1913 and 1921: Fixed magazine, used by rear echelon units, militia and some gun crews.

M1922: 20 round DBM, used by gun crews                                                  

M1925: Select fire M1922 used by combat engineers, AVF crews, some infantry(NCO, officers)

M1925 and some of the 1922 are to be replaced by M1935 in 7mm short(?).

 

 

Rifles: All in 7*57mm Mauser.

 

M1909: Single Shot Peabody-Martini, surplus

M1915: Savage 99 lever action, surplus

M1916: Spanish Model 1916 Mauser, reserve going surplus

M95/21: Mannlicher M95 conversion, reserve going surplus

M1908, 08/12: Straight pull, fixed 5 round magazine

M1912/30:  08, 08/12 with a 10 round detachable magazine

M1930: semi automatic rifle with a 10 round detachable magazine

 

 

Machine guns:

 

light: M1930 (ZB vz.30), Lewis

medium: modernized MG08/15 and potentially M1931(belt fed MG13)

heavy:  MG 08(standard), some M1922(MG 18 TuF) and M1922/29(air cooled MG 18)

 

The M1922 and 22/29 are in 13*92mm Mauser, the others in 7*57, the M1931 is not produced for a lack of funds.


Edited by Markus Becker, 12 February 2020 - 0556 AM.

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#704 Simon Tan

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Posted 12 February 2020 - 0939 AM

The M1925 has mostly been exported to China as machine pistols with stocks and extended 20 round magazines. These compete with Mauser Broomhandles and their clones. Most Chinese pistols are in 7.63x25mm Mauser and fully automatic.

The Armoured Troops have requested these in 9x19mm Parabellum since they are handier than the M1925 machine carbine. Climbing into and out of tank hatches is quite a challenge even with those. These pistols are semi-automatic only despite the request for automatic capability. 

 

Arsenal is focussing efforts on the service self-loading rifle. About 3,000 M1930s have been delivered but the intention is to switch to production of an improved model that incorporates feedback from users.

 

Amongst these is a Chinese warlord army that is now allied to Generalissimo Chiang Kai Shek's Kuomintang. We have several representatives and technical advisers servicing this customer so we have further attached a small detachment of infantry conduct operations with the Chinese. They were involved in the Central Plains War in 1930 where they had an opportunity to use the new self-loading rifle. Although it was highly regarded by users, they requested that the action be better sealed against dust that was ever present in the dry summer. Some of the Chinese troops were equipped with the Japanese Arisaka Type 38 rifle that has a dust cover that keeps the action closed from the environment and our detachment suggested that we have something similar on the self-loader.

 

After a couple of years of development, the updated M1933 pattern has been sealed. The bolt group has been redesigned to operate under a dust cover with the operating spring moved behind it. The M1930 used the original Sjogren spring arrangement forward of the receiver. The bolt group itself has a non-reciprocating sliding dust cover that also doubles as a charging handle (like a Ljungman) with a couple of ears to allow easier manipulation with the support hand. The rear sight has also been changed to an aperture style sight mounted at the back of the receiver. This change has received some push back from traditionalists but it is showing improved results in terms of precision and also rapidity of sight acquisition.

 

Our target is to produce about 20 rifles a day on the expanded line with deferment of M1930 LMG domestic production.


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#705 Markus Becker

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Posted 12 February 2020 - 1313 PM

The Mauser C96 is a rather old fashioned design. Why don't we give the AFV crews M1922 pistols with attachable stocks? We sell M1925 in that configuration to China. We could also shorten the barrel of the M1935 with the folding stock. 

 

I suggest funding Mr. Thomanek's work well. It is likely to work because he is actually not the first person who has described/discovered something like this. We have asked around and we'll be getting material from our representatives in the USA and Germany. We should expand the search and send everything to Mr. Thomanek. A working weapon could sell really, really well particularly once Stumgeschütz II enters service and renders AT rifle obsolescent. 

 

And while we talk about military observers, how about we send some to Paraguay? We are in the process of compiling a report but the information in it is second hand from a sales representative, who kept his distance to the front line. 


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#706 Simon Tan

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Posted 13 February 2020 - 0941 AM

The crews did not ask for Broomhandles but rather M1925s like the Chinese contract guns. Only the barrel and magazines need to be changed out. We can fulfill the orders by next year.

 

The 7mm carbine on the other hand is probably not going to be ready by 1935 without consensus in the development team. There are two viewpoints, one from the machine carbine side looking at blowback operation and the self-loading rifle side who want a locked breech solution. The former are looking at lighter bullets and smaller cases while the latter are essentially propose a shortened 7mm Mauser case with a somewhat shorter bullet.

We like the light, flat shooting ammunition but there is substantial resistance from certain quarters who see the carbine as a threat to the self-loading rifle. They are correct to say that a locked breech solution is needed for even the smaller round, based on the failure of the French Ribeyrolles 1918 which was a blowback gun. To placate the reactionaries, the M1933 has been given the highest priority at the expense of the carbine which for now goes onto the back burner.

 

Without the resources to build an machine carbine, the team has been looking for a way to keep up activity and interest in the 7mm Short. Minimal recoil, low blast and very light weight makes it really quite an attractive cartridge for target shooting, and for small game. A few small workshops are converting Peabody-Martini actions to this calibre with short barrels as light game guns. 


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#707 Markus Becker

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Posted 13 February 2020 - 1420 PM

Aha, the export M1925 for China are in 7.63 and out tankers want it in 9mm. 
 
So, "the 7mm carbine" was supposed to be an M1935 in 7*25mm, a pistol round even more powerful that the 7.63*25mm loaded for machine carbines* but now some want it to be an M1933 SLR firing a shortened 7mm Mauser? And as a result nothing is put into production? Anyone who currently uses the M1925 will continue to do so, while the M1935 is only produced for export? All right, it is not like we need lots of machine carbines in a hurry. We can actually test the hypothesis that 7*25 needs a locked action. The Ribeyrolles was in 8*35, so I'm not convinced we can draw that conclusion. 
 
 
The M95/21 are short rifles. Can we put the surplussing on hold? The M1916 Mausers too, if they are also short rifles. Should we need machine carbines irn a hurry we can give them to rear echelon untis and retrofit their M1921 into M1925. No, forget that. The M1935 needs so much less machine hours than the 1920 pattern guns. It will be fine.
 
 
 
*Essentially 7.62 Tokarev. 

Edited by Markus Becker, 13 February 2020 - 1550 PM.

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#708 Simon Tan

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Posted 17 February 2020 - 2345 PM

The Russians Soviets already have something like this for their Tokarev pistol which is only a little less ungainly than our Hahn. You can chamber this cartridge in a Hahn and it is safe to fire. It is not safe in a Broomhandle. We are in fact touting this to our Chinese customers as a reason to not buy yet more Spanish Broomhandles. 

The 7.63 Mauser is also being abandoned as a parent case as we do not have tooling to draw it. Instead it has been suggested that we use the 9x19mm as a parent using the same base and rim and drawing out a longer case. This makes sense terms of case production which is critical for a domestic only round. 

In order to have the effective extra reach compared to a 9x19 or 7.63x25, we have to use a light bullet to get maximum muzzle velocity from a carbine length barrel. This will give us the flat shooting performance up to combat ranges (200-250m). The light, short bullet loses velocity much more rapidly than the long, heavy spitzers from the 7mm Mauser but that is a non-issue.

 

Stick this 7mm Carbine cartridge in a test fixture* for the M192x machine carbines shows it will need an excessively large and heavy bolt and spring which results in a heavy firearm and excessive recoil. So it's locked breech. Soon. Maybe.

 

*test fixture is for studying barrel/cartridge/bolt/spring relationships without building prototypes. Just swap out bits.

 

Arsenal has developed good working relationship with the Yugoslav Kragujevac plant. They now supply us all our 8mm Mauser barrel blanks for our own use (aviation) and export.  We have sold a small batch of their M1924 Rifles and Carbines to our Chinese customers alongside our machine pistols and machine carbines.


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#709 Markus Becker

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Posted Today, 12:49 PM

This experimental 7mm version requires a locked breech?

 

https://postimg.cc/QHmCQjL7 *

 

In that case we suggest starting anew. The 7*25 is not so much better than 7.63 Mauser Machine Carbine that it justifies the not inconsiderable complexity of a locked action. A delayed blow back maybe but let’s look at it from a different angle.

 

Our light machine guns have an effective range of around 800 meters with the sights being the limiting factor. That means the ammunition we are currently using is more powerful than it needs to be. How about you design a milder round for light machine guns, with a ballistic performance that does not exceed the sight range by a factor of four to five and then see how this works from a four kilo rifle?

 

Which is probably a rhetoric question. From our M1930/33 we know for a fact that full powered 7mm Mauser works fine with a semi automatic rifle. So the question is probably how much milder 7mm Mauser can be made and still work fine with an LMG at 800 to 1.000 meters.

 

And we recommend no longer using 9mm Luger for new machine carbines for the Tankovian military. 7.63 Mauser MC is vastly superior beyond 100 meters, yet does not require a locked action.

 

 

*C by Argus


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